CIS-Lambda or CIS-E to CIS-Basic conversion

[Pillow]

Okay this sounds odd, but for my application I need to take either a CIS-Lambda or CIS-E fuel distributor and turn it into a K-Basic FD.

Essentially the CIS-Lambda just needs the frequency valve removed... I think I caould do that with some parts from the CIS-E FD. Granted I do not know the ramifications to performance on it. Rumor has it that on normal CIS-L cars that when the frequency valve dies it will resote to running pretty rich as a default..?

The CIS-E FD is much lighter and from what Piledriver has explained flows more fuel. Here I would remove the Pressure Regulator (essentially what replaces the WUR in a CIS-E setup?) and just run the lines as in a K-Basic setup. There seems to be a plugged hole that could be used to facilitate the WUR lines and one already in place. I am still not certain what effect the Differential Pressure Regulator will have though, according to the VW CIS-E book when the DPR is not supplied power it defaults to a pressure of 0.4 Bar (the same built in pressure as the earlier static CIS systems) which in theory leans the system out...

Both of the FDs I have use the large plate air flow meter with the 3 1/8" plate.

I will be heading to the junkyard in the morning, but I doubt any luck finding a K-Basic large plate FD to do a direct bolt on... We will see. I would like to be near done this conversion by the end of the weekend. Could be a pipe dream.

Thanks,

[NO_H2O]

or you could find the rest of the CIS w/Lambda stuff (Harness, brain, O2 and Temp sensor).

[raygreenwood]

There are some things....that unless you REALLYwant to get into serious work....should not be messed with. Do not remove the pressure regulator orifice. Each and every one of these can be slightly different. They wer made and set up specifically for each unit.
You can modify them.....and adjust them for specific pressures....by shaving/honing shims...then checking the resulting pressures....but thats kind of a waste of time.

Generally, the differences between K-basic, K-e and K lambda...are how the pressure feed to or from the main pressure regulator is varied....in order to affect more encremental adjustment of fuel pressure at the injectors. Its all basically the same concept...just either upstream or downstream of the main regulator orifice screwed into the CIS metering head.

On Lambda...its downstream of the main regulator. In other words...the main regulator with its shims....sets the main overall pressure. The frequency valve used in Lambda can be used in one of two ways: (1) to vary main pressure by bleeding pressure from the main before it gets to the injector circuit....or.... (2) to vary control pressure to make the system more or less sensitive to airflow input...but still running on one main pressure set by the regulator. Either of those methods will work.

Cis-e...essentially...varies main pressure if I am not mistaken.

If you want to remove the screw in regulator orifice altogether...then you must have a single rate pressure regulator to feed the main in its place. Something like a high pressure D-jet type will suffice.

Some of the CIS-e...like that used on the 16v sirrocco...also used a vacuum sensitive regulator. What you need to find out...is wether that was varying the main or control pressure. I have one of those regulators. It was avery complex vacuum varianble reg. Ray

[Pillow]

NoH2o, that moght be something I add in the future to make it a fully functional Lambda setup... Right now I just want it to work in a basic format. Also space is a constraint with the Miller FD mount, so to add back the Frequency valve will take a little work.

Ray, sorry I migth have misspoke on one thing as I have no plans to mess with the set control pressure valve. I agree that it is best left alone from the factory settings.

What I ended up doing is just taking out the Frequency Valve assembly and closing the two open holes that were left behind. Really easy to do, hopefully will not destroy its basic functionality. In theory this will just resort the FD to K-Basic functionality.

... More to come

[Piledriver]

Ray, The CIS-E setup I have (same as a VW Fox, from an Audi4000S) appears to adjust the main, based on control pressure, there is little variation in airmeter force unlike basic.

It is altitude compensated as well via the external pressure reg, and there is an adjustment in the output port I haven't tried yet.

E System pressure is ~88 PSI nominal, so you probably want the correct regulator.

Adrian, a "braiiiiinnnn" for CIS-E that will function as well as CIS-basic will set you back ~$6 at Radio Shack... esp if you fit the CIS-E fuel dist on the CIS+Lambda meter with the profiled cone.(it will fit, I think)

IMHO, it's the path of least resistance, and you really arent modifying anything, just sort of using a factory part not quite as intended, but still perfectly within its specs.

You need:

1 project box
1 1K pot to set current
100 ohm resistor to LIMIT current. (50 ohm if running 6v reg)
A couple ot test terminals for your ammeter
A jumper between said test terminals, or a SPDT switch, for reading current with an ammeter (or not)

This could all be done on a terminal strip as well...

I added a voltage reg, a 100mA meter movement, and used the flap pot as an enrichment device, but it will run WELL without all that, esp with a basic or +lambda airmeter.

I'm still getting >40MPG, and it ROCKS.

(IIRC I sent you the schematic of what I am running, if not, say hey and I'll send, latest version shows 9 terminals down the center of the drawing, easy to read and correct, shows warm up circuit usage as well IIRC)

[Piledriver]

BTW, anyone know what happened or have a link for Miller Fuel Injection?

Sandrail.com has been taken over by some magazine.
(Sandsports or such)

I need to order 4 CIS injector bungs for my sons new manifold.
(4 at the head, 4 upstream, merc 380 CIS setup, T03)

If not, anyone have correct dimensions so I can just turn them myself?

Ah, gotta love Googles cache:
http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:P0nc ... tion&hl=en

Contact:
Gary Miller
gmiller@pacifier.com

(360) 944-4422

[unavita]

Old thread- are you saying you're hotrodding a KE system by backdating it to kjet pre lambda?

[Piledriver]

I hotrodded a cis-basic and later cis+lambda setup with cis e/m meters.

You lose the warm up, but on an aircooled engine you generally must idle rich anyway, and warm up lasts 30 seconds or so @>20F
I kept the dpr and had a control box and a switch/parralel resistor for warmup... never really needed it in the end.

after having a line break on me with minor flexing and other issues with pressure regulators and injector quality, the cabby is getting a megasquirt, is down for that at the moment.
Have been running MS since Ray Greenwood sent me two lonely v1.01 kits (one unassembled) (in ~2010?)

One is on my bench with a ms2xt adapter and a ms3x i/o board,(is direct swap in spare for the ms3 in my squareback) the other is in service in a very custom ms2 setup. The other box on that bench is a ms3+ms3x (v3mainboard) destined for my 86 Vanagon for a 50k mile ez36 with freshened heads.

Both are in MS1 cases with custom end caps.

(ez36 already hanging on the 090 with audi guts, need to swap out the R&P with the 3.27 or whatever it is, have a qualife diff too but it's destined for the square) The ms3 in the square runs on a v2.2 mainboard.

There is a project thread on msextra for controlling cis+lambda or cisE/m with a ms by a 928 owner, with working code.

[unavita]

Thank you! That is exactly what I will be doing- keeping the CIS and controlling it with MS. I think that is best practice. Getting a CIS-KE to function on a CIS-E system is problematic. Any idea on the guys handle or link address?

[unavita]

This one?
https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14351

[Piledriver]

No.

The other (later) thread was a guy who designs/builds/sells EFI systems in Oz.
He had a 928 he wanted to improve... but keep the CIS.

probably 2012-2015 timeframe.
I'll try searching more at work tonight at lunch.

BUT....the CIS fuel meters are almost all junk by now, the FPRs for the -E/M meters diaphragms all leak, and the regulators are pure unobtainium. I cut the fittings off one of my "spares", picked up a good 1:1 FPR that will adjust from to 40-120PSI,TIG'd the cut off fittings to some ORB fittings, and screwed them in, mounted, adjusted and go. It almost all worked OK.

Today, I would just get a MS3pro-mini, CIS does not add anything performance or control wise, quite the opposite.
A MS2E or MS3 setup, properly tuned, is ~exactly like getting in and starting/driving a modern car.
Tunerstudio can get you a decent initial tune given a good hill or a few freeway onramp cycles.

The only trick for setting up idle on anything aircooled is do not start with the default settings (for a 1984 corvette, owned by a developer)
You need a LOT less fuel add % and its warmed up in a fraction of the time the 500lb hunk of iron took to hit 180F.

The MS3pro-mini comes with a full tunerstudio license like all ms3pros... justifies the cost over a microsquirt to a decent extent by itself.
You will probably want to pick up megalogviewer, it is quite excellent, I bought both TS and MLV on sale the day I got my square (with a t4 swap) fired up the first time.

[Piledriver]

Finally found it

https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopi ... IS#p408074

[raygreenwood]

This was always a great thread. As much as I love CIS...as Piledriver noted...its just been too long. These parts only survive if maybe they were submerged in oil somewhere. Any bit of rust and any of the parts mentioned in this thread are toast.

Ray