I was wondering if anyone out there knows if a gray paint was used on the original heater boxes. I have a fairly clean pair, and after removing all the grease, I'm seeing some signs of gray paint.
Can anyone confirm a gray paint, and if so, does anyone know what the factory color is, and what type of paint they use........... I want to try and paint the heater boxes on these........ forget about the header, unless anyone knows a paint that really works!
Exhaust Heater Box Paint
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raygreenwood
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- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
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BajaPorsche
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- Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:40 pm
I'm having problems with my logging in again..... hopefully both responses don't post up (my previous reply didn't register)
Ray, do you know anything about "Cold Galvanized Spray".... it's not as good as hot galvanized, but it is 95% Zinc...............do you think that may work for just on the heater boxes?
it goes on looking just like gray primer, almost like factory exhaust paint.
I've tested some on one of the exhausts on my linclon arc welder, I put a top coat over it though......... and I haven't fired it up yet, I want to let the paint cure for awhile longer.
Ray, I know you have a vast intellect on these issues, thanks for the response!
Ray, do you know anything about "Cold Galvanized Spray".... it's not as good as hot galvanized, but it is 95% Zinc...............do you think that may work for just on the heater boxes?
it goes on looking just like gray primer, almost like factory exhaust paint.
I've tested some on one of the exhausts on my linclon arc welder, I put a top coat over it though......... and I haven't fired it up yet, I want to let the paint cure for awhile longer.
Ray, I know you have a vast intellect on these issues, thanks for the response!
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raygreenwood
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- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
What works very well for preserving heater boxes and hot parts....it to first strip them with muriatic acid. This takes them all the way to bare metal and disolves all rust at a chemical level.
Next...what you want to do is rinse the part in water and let it sit for about 24 hours. It will develop...starting in minutes....to form a fine, thin even layer of rust....everywhere..inside and out.
Then get a gallon of "ospho"...or any other phosphoric acid wash....and soack the part. This will create a non-rusting permanent black oxide . This works very well.
It also makes a superb primer for any paint. At this point I usually put some of the highest temperatureenamel I can find.
It may also be excellent to use the cold galvanizing paint on top. But...I am not sure if the zinc in the cold galv paint can be put down over black oxide.
The black oxide must be covered with a paint though...as it becomes prone to oxidization....above 300F.
Next...what you want to do is rinse the part in water and let it sit for about 24 hours. It will develop...starting in minutes....to form a fine, thin even layer of rust....everywhere..inside and out.
Then get a gallon of "ospho"...or any other phosphoric acid wash....and soack the part. This will create a non-rusting permanent black oxide . This works very well.
It also makes a superb primer for any paint. At this point I usually put some of the highest temperatureenamel I can find.
It may also be excellent to use the cold galvanizing paint on top. But...I am not sure if the zinc in the cold galv paint can be put down over black oxide.
The black oxide must be covered with a paint though...as it becomes prone to oxidization....above 300F.
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BajaPorsche
- Posts: 320
- Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:40 pm
Ray - Another Great response from you. will this operation work as well on new metal...... I usually use metal prep, and/or a phosorous cleaner (from Sherwin Williams auto paint), it helps alot with the bond/adhesion to the metal.
But your process seems to what I've been looking for.......
1. My question now is will this process work for new metal, and if so, will I still need to use the muriatic acid first, or will just cleaning the oil off the metal with a metal cleaner/prep work?
2. Do I use the muriatic acid straight, if not, what dilution do you recommend?
3. The soaking for 24 hours part is a difficult one for me. Is their any alternative to soaking.... wrapping with soaked rags maybe?
4. If soaking with "Ospho"..... is the Ospho reusable, or is it a 1 time chemical?
Thanks Again Ray for the info!
But your process seems to what I've been looking for.......
1. My question now is will this process work for new metal, and if so, will I still need to use the muriatic acid first, or will just cleaning the oil off the metal with a metal cleaner/prep work?
2. Do I use the muriatic acid straight, if not, what dilution do you recommend?
3. The soaking for 24 hours part is a difficult one for me. Is their any alternative to soaking.... wrapping with soaked rags maybe?
4. If soaking with "Ospho"..... is the Ospho reusable, or is it a 1 time chemical?
Thanks Again Ray for the info!
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Yes it works for new metal. The trick here is to totally strip the metal (even new metal) with muriatic acid. Yes, this promotes almost instant rusting....as the acid removes every spec of lubricant or oil in teh metal grain. But...the layer of rust will be very fine and even on the surface. The phosphoric acid requires rust...which it coverts to...iron phosphate(?). This gives a very even, slightly roughened, blackish blue surface. It makes for superb primer. Once painted with a rust inhibiting paint...it is nearly immune to further rusting.
Yes you can use the muriatic acid straight. Or...you can do well with about 60/40 acid to water.
The acid part takes maybe....15-30 minutes. The phosphoric acid part....just pour it into and around the heater boxes to get it inside. If you can let it dry for a couple hours...you will be fine. The issue is that when its not all dry...and you cook some off when you drive it....you may be unprotected in some areas. You can counter this by getting a sprayer bottle and putting phosphoric acid mixture into it. Drive teh car if you have to...then when you get to work...reach under and spray all exposed surfaces. I do this to my mufflers. they last forever.
Be advised......ALWAYS...add theacid into water....not water into acid. It can become violent if you don't obey. Wear goggles and gloves. Stay upwind as it smokes and the vapor is very bad to breathe. Do this outdoors whenever possible. Keep a hose handy for spillage. This stuff eats concrete for lunch. Polyetheylene or polypropylene containers are fine.
Yes...you can discard this down the drain....BUT...you must dilute it about 50:1......so you will use about 50 gallons of water for every 1 gallon of acid. Use an old antifreeze jug to discard. Fill to about 8-10 ounces from the top with water...then add 8 ounces of acid.....then pour down teh drain with the water continuously running. It takes about 15-20 minutes to get rid of a gallon of acid. The worry is not plastic pipes. It won't hurt those. But you do not want concentrated acid in the sewer...and....since it eats rust....it will devour any rust in an old cast iron plumbing system...which may be all that is holding it together....
Ray
Yes you can use the muriatic acid straight. Or...you can do well with about 60/40 acid to water.
The acid part takes maybe....15-30 minutes. The phosphoric acid part....just pour it into and around the heater boxes to get it inside. If you can let it dry for a couple hours...you will be fine. The issue is that when its not all dry...and you cook some off when you drive it....you may be unprotected in some areas. You can counter this by getting a sprayer bottle and putting phosphoric acid mixture into it. Drive teh car if you have to...then when you get to work...reach under and spray all exposed surfaces. I do this to my mufflers. they last forever.
Be advised......ALWAYS...add theacid into water....not water into acid. It can become violent if you don't obey. Wear goggles and gloves. Stay upwind as it smokes and the vapor is very bad to breathe. Do this outdoors whenever possible. Keep a hose handy for spillage. This stuff eats concrete for lunch. Polyetheylene or polypropylene containers are fine.
Yes...you can discard this down the drain....BUT...you must dilute it about 50:1......so you will use about 50 gallons of water for every 1 gallon of acid. Use an old antifreeze jug to discard. Fill to about 8-10 ounces from the top with water...then add 8 ounces of acid.....then pour down teh drain with the water continuously running. It takes about 15-20 minutes to get rid of a gallon of acid. The worry is not plastic pipes. It won't hurt those. But you do not want concentrated acid in the sewer...and....since it eats rust....it will devour any rust in an old cast iron plumbing system...which may be all that is holding it together....
Ray-
BajaPorsche
- Posts: 320
- Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:40 pm
from Ray
Yes it works for new metal. The trick here is to totally strip the metal (even new metal) with muriatic acid. Yes, this promotes almost instant rusting....as the acid removes every spec of lubricant or oil in teh metal grain. But...the layer of rust will be very fine and even on the surface. The phosphoric acid requires rust...which it coverts to...iron phosphate(?).
response
I'm not familiar with iron phosphate... and the phophoric acid is "Ospho" right?
This gives a very even, slightly roughened, blackish blue surface. It makes for superb primer. Once painted with a rust inhibiting paint...it is nearly immune to further rusting.
response
Can this finish be sanded like a primer too?
Be advised......ALWAYS...add theacid into water....not water into acid. It can become violent if you don't obey. Wear goggles and gloves. Stay upwind as it smokes and the vapor is very bad to breathe. Do this outdoors whenever possible. Keep a hose handy for spillage. This stuff eats concrete for lunch. Polyetheylene or polypropylene containers are fine.
response
Thanks Ray for the advice....I never knew about the mixing acid into water...... I've been using muriatic acid for years on brickwork.... YUP, it eats cement for lunch! .... I've always used a somewhat weaker mix for cleaning brick........ but oh yeah, that stuff works!
As Always Ray, Some great information from you.... thanks again!
Do you know about how much "Ospho" cost for a gallon?
Yes it works for new metal. The trick here is to totally strip the metal (even new metal) with muriatic acid. Yes, this promotes almost instant rusting....as the acid removes every spec of lubricant or oil in teh metal grain. But...the layer of rust will be very fine and even on the surface. The phosphoric acid requires rust...which it coverts to...iron phosphate(?).
response
I'm not familiar with iron phosphate... and the phophoric acid is "Ospho" right?
This gives a very even, slightly roughened, blackish blue surface. It makes for superb primer. Once painted with a rust inhibiting paint...it is nearly immune to further rusting.
response
Can this finish be sanded like a primer too?
Be advised......ALWAYS...add theacid into water....not water into acid. It can become violent if you don't obey. Wear goggles and gloves. Stay upwind as it smokes and the vapor is very bad to breathe. Do this outdoors whenever possible. Keep a hose handy for spillage. This stuff eats concrete for lunch. Polyetheylene or polypropylene containers are fine.
response
Thanks Ray for the advice....I never knew about the mixing acid into water...... I've been using muriatic acid for years on brickwork.... YUP, it eats cement for lunch! .... I've always used a somewhat weaker mix for cleaning brick........ but oh yeah, that stuff works!
As Always Ray, Some great information from you.... thanks again!
Do you know about how much "Ospho" cost for a gallon?
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Around here, ospho...and several other brands like it, cost between $18-22 a gallon. You must not put liquid that has come in contact with metal back into teh jug as it will spoil fresh liquid. This is why I first spritz and brush as much of the surface as I can before using whats left to soak a part in to get at the insides. Ray
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BajaPorsche
- Posts: 320
- Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:40 pm
That sounds like a good deal compared to what I've been paying for my metal prepping process. I get a good bond, but, I still have to shoot a primer, and the cost of paint and another day of the painting process could be eliminated........ plus, it sounds like the muriatic acid, Ospho treatment is much better then most typical treatments.... maybe even supeior to POR15, which I use alot.Around here, ospho...and several other brands like it, cost between $18-22 a gallon. You must not put liquid that has come in contact with metal back into teh jug as it will spoil fresh liquid. This is why I first spritz and brush as much of the surface as I can before using whats left to soak a part in to get at the insides. Ray
Ray, How would you compare this process to POR15.............. my experience with por15 on exhaust paint was not real impressive, real temporary at best.
I think I might try just to spritz the new metal with ospho, after a muriatic treatment and see what kind of results I get, with metal exposed continuously to the outside conditions.
Is there any special place to get Ospho?
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
Actually from what I can tell, the POR15 system uses very similar chemistry to this. The problem I have seen from POR15 is that possibly their chemical mixtures are a bit less strong....and therefore their time expanse for each step in their instructions is a bit hopeful.
For instance, I have seen very mixed results from their gas tank sealing kit...from superb to failure. They use a phosphoric acid system to covery rust to a primer for the epoxy as well.
The problem is this. The phosporic acid can only convert rust to a very shallow depth. It depletes the phosphoric acid too soon during the conversion process to get at thick or flaky rust. But...in order to get good surface priming...you must have this oxide conversion on the surface for the epoxy to stick to. If you cannt convert all rust....then the rust keeps growing and converting metal.
This is where the muriatic acid comes in. Its solution strength is high. It disolves all rust flaky or otherwise down to bare metal. But at that point...there is no longer any surface rust to convert to iron phosphate...to be the primer.
These are the two flaws I see in the usage f POR-15. Either you have not gotten every spec of thick rust off...which creates pitting and bubbles later in the coating or paint.......OR...after de-rusting....it is so clean that there is nothing for the POR's system to convert to primer.
This is why I let it re-rust before using the phosphoric acid to convert the surface. With these additions...I have found POR products to work well. Ray
For instance, I have seen very mixed results from their gas tank sealing kit...from superb to failure. They use a phosphoric acid system to covery rust to a primer for the epoxy as well.
The problem is this. The phosporic acid can only convert rust to a very shallow depth. It depletes the phosphoric acid too soon during the conversion process to get at thick or flaky rust. But...in order to get good surface priming...you must have this oxide conversion on the surface for the epoxy to stick to. If you cannt convert all rust....then the rust keeps growing and converting metal.
This is where the muriatic acid comes in. Its solution strength is high. It disolves all rust flaky or otherwise down to bare metal. But at that point...there is no longer any surface rust to convert to iron phosphate...to be the primer.
These are the two flaws I see in the usage f POR-15. Either you have not gotten every spec of thick rust off...which creates pitting and bubbles later in the coating or paint.......OR...after de-rusting....it is so clean that there is nothing for the POR's system to convert to primer.
This is why I let it re-rust before using the phosphoric acid to convert the surface. With these additions...I have found POR products to work well. Ray
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BajaPorsche
- Posts: 320
- Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:40 pm
The Por15 I have had good results when using the tank sealer, it was just when I used some of the exhaust/header paint, that it just seemed to fail miserably low to my expectations........ but, I'm thinking maybe I didn't prep the different exhausts properly, and after your explanation of why the acid/phosphoric acid combination is needed, maybe I should use some of the rest of that por15 exhaust paint again on something...... two colors, aluminum and black.
Ray, you stated above that you have access to Ospho or other products like it for 18 to 22 a gallon.... out here on the west coast the best deal I can find is on west marine rust-lock metal prep at $9 a quart....
have you ever used that product?
Ray, you stated above that you have access to Ospho or other products like it for 18 to 22 a gallon.... out here on the west coast the best deal I can find is on west marine rust-lock metal prep at $9 a quart....
have you ever used that product?
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raygreenwood
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- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
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BajaPorsche
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- Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:40 pm
sorry it took so long, I've had a hard time logging in the past few days.
There are some Ace hardware stores in my area, I'll check home depot, and lowes too.
I've just finished treating some new metal for a motor/tranny cart, going to shoot the paint today and see how it holds up outdoors.
Thanks again Ray, for all the great advice...... oh yeah, I'm going to shoot a few air cleaners too........ maybe I'll post some foto's.
There are some Ace hardware stores in my area, I'll check home depot, and lowes too.
I've just finished treating some new metal for a motor/tranny cart, going to shoot the paint today and see how it holds up outdoors.
Thanks again Ray, for all the great advice...... oh yeah, I'm going to shoot a few air cleaners too........ maybe I'll post some foto's.