hi, im new to the forum. i just returned from a 300 mile trip in my '72 bus and at every stop along the way my bus seemed to be just dumping oil or some other type of fluid from just behind the transmission and just in front of the engine.
when i finally got home i let the bus sit for a couple of hours to cool off and then checked the oil and the dipstick showed a full level of oil.
has anyone else had this happen? it only seems to leak this badly after a longish trip. i can drive around town and the leak is no problem. anywhoo, any help would be greatly appreciated. if anyone is in the lubbock, texas area i would be glad to help you out with anything.
Massive leak
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Piledriver
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Was the oil... smelly?
If it smelled of rotten eggs, it's (transmission) gear oil, and you need to replace the input shaft seal, and check that the vent hole on top isn't covered up with crud.
It's not a huge job, but the motor has to come out, and it may be prudent to replace the TO bearing and perhaps clutch while it's out, if it's ~due.
IIRC it's at the top of the nosecone, but I'm going from memory.
If it was just plain old oil, it could be either the flywheel seal (common failure, easy fix)
PULL THE DISTRIBUTOR AND DRIVE BEFORE YOU PULL THE FLYWHEEL.
Check the endplay with the seal out while you are at it.
Replace the pulley end seal as well if you have a T4 or WBX.
If it smelled of rotten eggs, it's (transmission) gear oil, and you need to replace the input shaft seal, and check that the vent hole on top isn't covered up with crud.
It's not a huge job, but the motor has to come out, and it may be prudent to replace the TO bearing and perhaps clutch while it's out, if it's ~due.
IIRC it's at the top of the nosecone, but I'm going from memory.
If it was just plain old oil, it could be either the flywheel seal (common failure, easy fix)
PULL THE DISTRIBUTOR AND DRIVE BEFORE YOU PULL THE FLYWHEEL.
Check the endplay with the seal out while you are at it.
Replace the pulley end seal as well if you have a T4 or WBX.
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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wildthings
- Posts: 1171
- Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:42 am
If it turns out to be motor oil, it could also be a galley plug about to blow. There are three galley plugs behind the flywheel, check that they are all at the same depth. Even if they all appear good, I would recommend peening the case lightly around each plug. When one blows it can really ruin your day and your wallet.
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
It can also be a rear main seal. There is something important you need to look at.
I now have two EA series cases just like this. Drove me crazy for an entire year....had to replace the rear main FIVE FREAKIN TIMES.
The symptoms:
(1) Only happens in hot weather
(2) Only starts to leaks at high sustained engine rpms at highway speed
(3) Only appears to leak alot...right after you stop the vehicle and shut down (it takes a dump)
What it was not:
(1) Not a "failed" rear main seal
(2) Not a bad galley plug (all of mine were tapped on one case and not on the other)
(3) Not failed end play shims....like I thought.
(4) not a bad crank o-ring
What it turned ouit to be:
It was the rear main leaking. It never really leaked that much in any given instance....but it leaked it when eveything was expanded in hot weather and when running reasonably high oil pressure at high rpm...about 40+ psi.
What I found...is that on a reasonably long drive at highway rpms...like an hour or more, several ounces of oil ...maybe at the worst 5-8 oz....would leak out of the rear main seal. The centrifugal force of the flywheel kept all of that oil whizzing around up in the bell housing behind the flywheel....until you stopped...then it dropped and drizzled out into a puddle of maybe....8 inches in diameter. Scared hell out of me when I saw oil running out.
Why it happend: I found that the seal recess on these two cases was actually 9.5-10mm deep instead of the normal 8-8.5mm deep. It allowed the seal to recess slightly too far allowing only adequate seal lip pressure on the curved sealing flange of the flywheel.
This only happened when Heat expanded things AND oil pressure got high...AND when oil was thin......and this only happened when you had the combination of those THREE things.....so it never happened in teh spring or winter. Only summer.
What I found was that it used the vanagon rear main seal...not the normal type 4. I dug around in the detrious bucket of the last rebuild I did on it...and found the original seal. It was a 10mm thick vanagon type seal.
This was the original engine from a Euro/tourest version of a 412 2 door tourist vehicle picked up in Germany in December of 73. From all the records...which I have...the engine had never been out. The solution was imply to keep installing vanagon seals and it never leaked a drop. I have two identical cases that appear to have been made this way.
Check the seal recess depth. If it is deeper than 8.5mm...this can be your problem. Ray
I now have two EA series cases just like this. Drove me crazy for an entire year....had to replace the rear main FIVE FREAKIN TIMES.
The symptoms:
(1) Only happens in hot weather
(2) Only starts to leaks at high sustained engine rpms at highway speed
(3) Only appears to leak alot...right after you stop the vehicle and shut down (it takes a dump)
What it was not:
(1) Not a "failed" rear main seal
(2) Not a bad galley plug (all of mine were tapped on one case and not on the other)
(3) Not failed end play shims....like I thought.
(4) not a bad crank o-ring
What it turned ouit to be:
It was the rear main leaking. It never really leaked that much in any given instance....but it leaked it when eveything was expanded in hot weather and when running reasonably high oil pressure at high rpm...about 40+ psi.
What I found...is that on a reasonably long drive at highway rpms...like an hour or more, several ounces of oil ...maybe at the worst 5-8 oz....would leak out of the rear main seal. The centrifugal force of the flywheel kept all of that oil whizzing around up in the bell housing behind the flywheel....until you stopped...then it dropped and drizzled out into a puddle of maybe....8 inches in diameter. Scared hell out of me when I saw oil running out.
Why it happend: I found that the seal recess on these two cases was actually 9.5-10mm deep instead of the normal 8-8.5mm deep. It allowed the seal to recess slightly too far allowing only adequate seal lip pressure on the curved sealing flange of the flywheel.
This only happened when Heat expanded things AND oil pressure got high...AND when oil was thin......and this only happened when you had the combination of those THREE things.....so it never happened in teh spring or winter. Only summer.
What I found was that it used the vanagon rear main seal...not the normal type 4. I dug around in the detrious bucket of the last rebuild I did on it...and found the original seal. It was a 10mm thick vanagon type seal.
This was the original engine from a Euro/tourest version of a 412 2 door tourist vehicle picked up in Germany in December of 73. From all the records...which I have...the engine had never been out. The solution was imply to keep installing vanagon seals and it never leaked a drop. I have two identical cases that appear to have been made this way.
Check the seal recess depth. If it is deeper than 8.5mm...this can be your problem. Ray
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jollygreen
- Posts: 10
- Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:52 pm
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Piledriver
- Moderator
- Posts: 22779
- Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 12:01 am
Hmmm... Ray, are you driving the seal in until it stops or until flush with the block?
I've never had any issues driving flush...
I've never had any issues driving flush...
Addendum to Newtons first law:
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
zero vehicles on jackstands, square gets a fresh 090 and 1911, cabby gets a blower.
EZ3.6 Vanagon after that.(mounted, needs everything finished) then Creamsicle.
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raygreenwood
- Posts: 11907
- Joined: Wed Jan 22, 2003 12:01 am
On these two cases.....and even on my cases that measure normally in the seal recess...I drive it in until seated in the bottom of the bore. In fact...on none of the cases I have ever worked on...do the seals actually drive in totally flush. They stand proud maybe... .5mm or slightly less....which is normal.
But with these two cases a normal type 4 seal..when driven in until seated....are the recessed....about 1.0-1.5mm. The vanagon seal drives in...seats...and is right at .5mm proud of the case.
I measured two cases last night. The one I am building (slowly...ever so slowly)...measures right at 9.85mm in depth. The relatively normal spare case I have measures....right at 8mm.
After thinking about what you are saying....perhaps I should just be driving it in flush and depth variations on type 4 cases are common on teh seal area.....but....over the years on some cases where the seal is not driven in until seated...I have noted slight side slip or misalignment on seals. It shows in the wear pattern when you finally change it. The second case I have with the seal recess depth at 10mm was run this way by the PO...meaning the seal was set flush....but there was about 1.5mm+ of space left behind it. When I first changed the seal on it...I simply drove it in until seated....which turned out to be less than flush. It was my spare engine at the time...and its how I discovered the excessive depth and went to check the issue on the engine that was in my car...with the chronic seal leak problem.
I actually found the vanagon seal by accident. I had no idea they had a thicker seal. I went to a parts how in Garland TX...(knights foreign parts....now gone)...and they had all of their rear type 4 seals lined up in a bin....and I noticed one brown viton seal thicker than the rest...and slapped a caliper on it...and solved the issue.
But...I found another way as well. I have found a large 1.5mm thick internal snap ring. I ground teh ears next to teh holes down...and snap it into teh seal recess so one ear is hooked into teh oil hole....not blcoking it.....but so it will not rotate. I drive in a normal type 4, 8mm seal...and its perfect. Ray
But with these two cases a normal type 4 seal..when driven in until seated....are the recessed....about 1.0-1.5mm. The vanagon seal drives in...seats...and is right at .5mm proud of the case.
I measured two cases last night. The one I am building (slowly...ever so slowly)...measures right at 9.85mm in depth. The relatively normal spare case I have measures....right at 8mm.
After thinking about what you are saying....perhaps I should just be driving it in flush and depth variations on type 4 cases are common on teh seal area.....but....over the years on some cases where the seal is not driven in until seated...I have noted slight side slip or misalignment on seals. It shows in the wear pattern when you finally change it. The second case I have with the seal recess depth at 10mm was run this way by the PO...meaning the seal was set flush....but there was about 1.5mm+ of space left behind it. When I first changed the seal on it...I simply drove it in until seated....which turned out to be less than flush. It was my spare engine at the time...and its how I discovered the excessive depth and went to check the issue on the engine that was in my car...with the chronic seal leak problem.
I actually found the vanagon seal by accident. I had no idea they had a thicker seal. I went to a parts how in Garland TX...(knights foreign parts....now gone)...and they had all of their rear type 4 seals lined up in a bin....and I noticed one brown viton seal thicker than the rest...and slapped a caliper on it...and solved the issue.
But...I found another way as well. I have found a large 1.5mm thick internal snap ring. I ground teh ears next to teh holes down...and snap it into teh seal recess so one ear is hooked into teh oil hole....not blcoking it.....but so it will not rotate. I drive in a normal type 4, 8mm seal...and its perfect. Ray