Wheel alignment

dangouyes · Post by **dangouyes** » Mon May 11, 2009 12:57 pm

Hi everybody. I have a new question about my new car (i´m happy with it); Does anybody know what are the correct wheel alignment measures for a VW 411? Mine is the only one here in Colombia, so, nobody know about how to align it. THANKS a lot.!! Ur friend Daniel

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Tue May 12, 2009 9:48 am

dangouyes,
according to my 1970 Type4 data book the front wheel toe in is
+0.6 to +4,2mm "not pressured" and -1.8 to +1.8mm "pressured".

The Camber with straight forward wheels is 1degree10' (+25' to -30').

The Caster is 1degree10' ( +/-35')

/Lars S

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Tue May 12, 2009 10:59 am

If you are running wider than stock wheels add an extra degree of toe-in. My 5.5 x 15's require about 3/4 degree more per side. Ray

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Tue May 12, 2009 11:07 am

raygreenwood wrote:If you are running wider than stock wheels add an extra degree of toe-in. My 5.5 x 15's require about 3/4 degree more per side. Ray

Forgot, but does that (extra toe-in) give better straightline handling or better cornering abilities?
Tnx,
Walter

dangouyes · Post by **dangouyes** » Tue May 12, 2009 1:04 pm

Hi Lars, raygreenwood an Wally, thanks by answer me, now, i´m going to print measure and go out to put my car much better. How could I put pictures of my 411 L 1971 here at shoptalkforums to show you?

thanks

Lars S · Post by **Lars S** » Tue May 12, 2009 9:45 pm

There is a recent thread about posting pictures:
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... ht=#930585

We are really looking forward to your plenty pictures dangouyes!!

/Lars S

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed May 13, 2009 5:07 am

The extra degree of toe-in gives much better straight line and tire wear. The problem is that the wider the tires you put on...the more thrust there is against them from forward motion. The parts that are getting spread or compressed are the radius arm donuts and control arm bushings. It also teneds to remove a 1/2 degree or so of castor while in motion because of this flexing.
You can stop some of this with stiffer radius arm donuts but much over 65 durometer of urethane or rubber risks cracking the mount of the donuts because of stiffness in very cold weather. Ray

Bill K. · Post by **Bill K.** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:33 am

Does anyone have specs or recommendations for rear camber? I measured my stock setup on 2-door coupe and got 1.7 and 2.0 degrees.

BTW - for quicker turn-in, toe-OUT the front end making the inside wheel .

Wally · Post by **Wally** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:38 am

Nothing in the Haynes manual about that Bill?

Bill K. · Post by **Bill K.** » Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:20 pm

Nope, just rear toe-in is all I found.

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Mon Aug 24, 2009 5:21 am

I just recently put in a post either here in or the samba about adding rear camber adjustment. It is actually pretty easy....but you have to remove the rear trailing arms and mounts and grind teh upper side of the trailing arm mounting slots of the inner trailing arm mount. This allows movement upward of the inner trailing arm mount which will change camber.
To maintain the adjustment...drill a hole from underneath and add a vertical bolt. Tack weld a nut onto the outer surface to hold the nut.

There is an internal aluminum floating structure that keeps the rear crossmember from crushing when you tighten the trailing arm mounts. It is against this syructure that teh vertical adjustment bolt drives against. When you have the trailing arm off...you will see all of this immediatley. It then becomes quickly clear what to do when you have remove the mounting points. It takes about 1-2 hours per side once the rear arms are loose.
You will need a die grinder or dremel tool with carbibe burrs and cut-off wheels. The steel is tough. You will need to widen the slots by about 1/8". Ray

Bill K. · Post by **Bill K.** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:42 pm

Ray - did you mean to say slot the OUTSIDE arm mount? The inside mount is above the big bracket that the ebrake cable goes through making it difficult to mount the adjuster nut. Also, slotting the inside mount holes upward would reduce camber and it seems we want to increase camber for better grip.

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 5:38 am

No. The outer mount is too thin and there is not enough room for movement.
Also...you are not slotting the mount...you are slotting the two holes that the mount goes into on the rear crossmember. Thsi is not a problem.

Yes...the object here is to REDUCE camber..because as the suspension ages...camber is added as the rear trailing wishbone takes a "cast". By this I mean that the tires lean inward at the tops.
Better traction?...maybe if you are racing. Its enough to cause severe tire wear on 411/412 and there is no adjustment for it.

You could slot a bit downward I suppose..if you wanted to increase camber...but there is not much room in the downward direction.

To be clear about what I am speaking of....the rear trailing arms have two mounts each...an inner (which is the end that the toe in adjustment is on) and the outer. Each mount has two diagonally spaced studs. We are doing NOTHING to the mount itself...or the trailing arm. We are working only with the two slotted holes that go through the large rear cross member on the inner mount. Ray

Bill K. · Post by **Bill K.** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 6:48 am

Gotcha. Do you put the weld-in adjuster nut in the main part of the crossmember, above the bracket that the ebrake cable goes through? Or, just put the weld-in adjuster nut in the bracket that the ebrake cable goes through (avoiding having to clearance the bracket for access to the crossmember lower face)?

Any idea what stock rear camber should be? It's not listed in manual. My car is at 1.7-2.0 degrees.

Thanks, Bill

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed Sep 16, 2009 8:26 am

The weld in adjuster nut actually goes on the bottom of the main cross member....slightly off-center to the mount.
So...if you wanted to adjust camber....in my book that is usually decreasing camber (making the the top of the tire move outward).....you would jack the car up on the side you are working on. On the forward side of the rear cross member you would loosen the two 19mm nuts that hold the inner trailing arm mount tight to the cross member....then...laying on your back....looking at the bottom side of the inner mount and the crossmember...you would see the welded nut and the set screw/bolt that is almost dead center in the middle of the cross member....that you turn to literally pushed the mount upwards in its slots. You could simply use a large set screw or an actual bolt in that weld on nut.
The e-brake cable bracket will have no real problem other than being very close to where you are working. Ray

This is really a hard thing to understand until you actually happen to remove a trailing arm and the two mounts. The part that enables you to make this adjustment is NOT visible to the eye...and does not appear in any parts books or manuals. Let me explain.

That rear cross member that the trailing arms mounts attache to...is hollow. In order to keep it from crushing when you tighten the two bolts on each trailing arm mount of the forward side of the crossmember....they have a thick slice of aluminum (might be steel)...that was inserted inside the hollow crossmember before they welded it together. I call that the anti-crush block.
It floats...meaning it is not attched to the crossmember. It floats because there is already.....a horizontal position adjustment for the trailing arm mounts.
Their mounting holes in the crossmember are slotted horizontally to allow you to set the proper track and axle position for the rear end. This is where I got the final idea from.... to be able to adjust camber.
If the anti-crush block is floating...so it can move sideways with the trailing arm mounts in the slots.....why can the slots not also be widened vertically to allow the anti-crush block to float (actually be pushed) upward to allow camber change?.

It can. You can widen the slots that the mounts go into on the crossmember by about 3/16"...and install a pusher bolt underneath. This adjusting screw is vertical. Ray