"4-Way suspension" work alike?

[helowrench]

Dude, I do know how they work.
Balancing spring forces against each other, and dynamic rotating components to achieve a balance of forces is part of what I do for a living.
I have seen, touched and smelled the ones on Pildrivers car.
Let him tell you whether I am up to speed on them or not.

[KentT]

Guy, I'm not questioning your understanding -- I truly am not! I'm only trying to communicate clearly for those others who might read this thread and haven't wrapped their heads around it yet... Peace, brother!

As another example, to for those who aren't familiar with them. For drag-racing, you could jack the rear of the car slightly and clamp the lower ends of the 4-way spring mounts in that position. That would make the rear springs stiffer. Then go to the front, add weight to it temporarily and clamp the lower spring mounts of the 4-way shocks in that position. You've now effectively changed the front/rear weight transfer similar to how the old-school 80/20 front shocks work for drag-racing... Or, you could do it for just for the right, rear corner to help counteract "torque twist" while leaving the left rear alone. How much bias you add is based upon the position of the bottom spring mount of the 4way shock on each corner...

The same can be said for the side-to-side adjustments for bodyroll tuning for handling at the gymkana or road track. You could independently and easily tune each corner...

And you can make all these adjustments, temporarily, at the track, then quickly return it to "normal" -- whatever that preload setting might be on any corner -- for the drive home...

[ProctorSilex]

as the rest of you guys can see, our coffee meets are awesome.
anyone close to dallas, I highly recommend you show up.

If that coffee shop is at a race track with cars of various configurations, I'll be on the next flight.

I have seen, touched and smelled the ones on Pildrivers car.

Did they pass the sniff test?

[Piledriver]

Rob, I can absolutely assure you these react very much like swaybars re: body roll.
You really need to drive my square sometime.

I could do with a softer (or longer) spring up front, but the ride is not bad considering the springs out back were for a Winnebago.

[Roflhat]

So where can these be sourced? I emailed Toughdog but they said they've not done these for a very long time

[ProctorSilex]

So where can these be sourced? I emailed Toughdog but they said they've not done these for a very long time

Fleabay and maybe Craigslist (I saw the brand on CL, but not this specific item). You could also try off road forums. You can buy the stuff new from Australia on Fleabay, but it is crazy expensive. I have picked up four on Fleabay so far. Three of them would only fit the front without an adapter for the top. One was used as a steering stabilizer on a Winnebago or something. One was a display model. The other two were old stock missing most of the pointy end washers. Roughly $150 so far. Not nearly as cheap as Soul's score.

[KentT]

Rob, I can absolutely assure you these react very much like swaybars re: body roll.
You really need to drive my square sometime.

I could do with a softer (or longer) spring up front, but the ride is not bad considering the springs out back were for a Winnebago.

Agree! When I added them to my '63 ragtop, years ago, the ride effect was overall not really much different than when going from "comfort" shocks to "heavy-duty" shocks. Firmer, with more road feel, but not uncomfortable at all.

But, the effect on handling almost had to be experienced to be believed... They radically changed the handling characteristics, keeping the body almost flat in any maneuver, at any speed. The effect on handling was similar to when I added HD front and rear sway bars to an IRS '70 Ghia, for example, without the harshness when you hit a bump/pothole with only one wheel that those HD sway bars had.

Bottom line was the handling was MUCH more predictable overall than when adding swaybars to the IRS ... and the ride was more comfortable, overall. I love what they do to counteract squatting and nose-diving -- and nothing else I've experienced does that. I never realized how much of that I was experiencing in hard driving through the twisties, until it was no longer there...

You could focus more on what's ahead and your upcoming brake/shift points, rather than reacting to and trying to counteract what the car was doing at the current time....

Maybe it was partly psychological, because they simply improved my driving confidence like I've never encountered before or since...

[Piledriver]

I imagine at the limits on a swingaxle car the handling would change from sheer terror > joy...
These would largely eliminate the need for a camber compensator or Z bar, limit straps would probably be sufficient.

The springs are std 2" ID , the only thing nonstd about these are the spring mounts at each end.
(I guess if you were to make some end castings larger springs exist)

[helowrench]

as the rest of you guys can see, our coffee meets are awesome.
anyone close to dallas, I highly recommend you show up.

If that coffee shop is at a race track with cars of various configurations, I'll be on the next flight.

I have seen, touched and smelled the ones on Pildrivers car.

Did they pass the sniff test?

#2 the term "sniff test " should probably not be used within 50ft of his car........
I kid I kid. I have crawled around and under that car looking at the various engine and suspension mods,, Every time I do, I think of Pile as one of those mad scientists, or maybe a brilliant but (deranged redneck....)
He actually manages to care less about appearance than I do, his or the car's, so the car looks like crap externally, and Pile could have walked out from under a bridge with a piece of cardboard for a sign.
Maybe.
Then sometimes he shows up in nice clothes (I believe he does it to jack with us) you never know..

#1 technically there is no racetrack at our coffee events. Unless you count the GWB Toll road 100yds away which fulfills all of the individual requirements of a racetrack.

The best part is the group, about 10, of whom maybe 6 will show up any given night.
From 30 to 65 retired, semiretired, manna retire, redneck, yuppie, punk, hipster, rockabilly, and even a seminary student
All political, social, economic, theological, and philosophical sides are represented.
And it is bizarre to see which sides get argued by whom.
I have watched a Persian immigrant covered in tattoos discussing the Council of Nicea decisions with a professed atheist hipster, only to have them both turn and join into an argument over which drag slicks are better
It gets crazy sometimes.

[PhillipM]

So, they're not really similar to changing the stock spring rate at all... The 4way is countering the stock springs during part of the suspension travel, while adding to the stock spring rate at other points of travel...

Yes, exactly the same as switching to a normal progressive spring.

The 4-ways try to return the suspension to its normal loaded (not unloaded) position in reaction to any change in body position... they make the shocks progressive in BOTH directions of travel. No other suspension component, nor add-on such as a sway bar does that.

The make the springs progressive in one direction, they don't alter the shocks/dampers at all.

[Piledriver]

Phillip, they add damping by nature, the rate is different between the two springs.
They are snubbers, not being hydraulic changes nothing, they do change the effective damping by definition.

Implement adding 350 lb/in coils to 150 lb in springs as a standard progressive spring, and only have the 350s working in both directions (push and pull) from rest position, please post pics.

You keep saying they work like std progressive springs.
you cannot even seem to describe them properly..

I get to explain how various poop really works to PhDs all day long, it's part of my job.

[KentT]

Phillip, they add damping by nature, the rate is different between the two springs.
They are snubbers, not being hydraulic changes nothing, they do change the effective damping by definition.

Implement adding 350 lb/in coils to 150 lb in springs as a standard progressive spring, and only have the 350s working in both directions (push and pull) from rest position, please post pics.

You keep saying they work like std progressive springs.
you cannot even seem to describe them properly..

I get to explain how various poop really works to PhDs all day long, it's part of my job.

Yes, they provide no additional damping at the normal ride position (assuming you don't preload them to bias them) and they provide progressive damping when the hub tries to push up into the fender well. The farther the hub tries to go, the more force it takes to compress these added springs.

They also provide the same effect when the hub tries to move lower, out of the fender well, being pushed down by the spring leaves in the torsion bar. The farther down the hub tries to move, the more resistance, as it pulls against that added spring.

It makes the shocks function as if they are progressive in BOTH directions of travel... as they try to counter any movement away from the "at rest" position...

Some people simply can't seem to understand how these things work. They're not "magic", but they are not similar to anything else on the market, either... I've now stored a search on eBay -- maybe I can luck into a set...

[PhillipM]

Phillip, they add damping by nature, the rate is different between the two springs.
They are snubbers, not being hydraulic changes nothing, they do change the effective damping by definition.

Implement adding 350 lb/in coils to 150 lb in springs as a standard progressive spring, and only have the 350s working in both directions (push and pull) from rest position, please post pics.

You keep saying they work like std progressive springs.
you cannot even seem to describe them properly..

I get to explain how various poop really works to PhDs all day long, it's part of my job.

Good for you, I get to design and build suspension systems and dampers all day long, and if you think they're changing the damping you've got your head up your arse.
They might change the damping coefficient - but only because the spring rate is progressive - but they never change the absolute damping force at all, all it means is you can never get the damping set ideally any more, only for one single area in the travel.
Just because it seems to work in your head doesn't make it true.

As for being 'progressive in both directions', no, they're not, because they're working against the main spring when they extend, and with it when the compress, that's progressive in a single direction - just like a single spring. If they were progressive in droop you'd just pick the wheel up off the floor like a check strap.
If you still can't get your head around that, then either going through the simple math on the spring rates will tell you the same story, and if you can't manage that, I can graph the whole lot out for you and show you exactly the same thing.

[Piledriver]

even changing the spring rate changes the effective damping.
Opposing springs further effects the damping even if there is no hydraulic damper.
You think damping requires hydraulics?
This is basic textbook stuff you have forgotten?

Please post your single progressive spring 350/150, where the heavy spring only acts (in both directions) from rest position.

We want to see it.

[KentT]

Phillip, they will lift the inside wheel much earlier in a very hard turn than without them... similar to what a check strap does... the spring on the 4-way shock is stronger than the unsprung weight of the hub and wheel and any residual spring rate of the normal spring as it nears full extension... the shocks will not fully extend -- or at least mine did not.

Perhaps the rears for a swing-axle had a different spring rate -- I honestly don't remember. But, using them a camber compensator was not needed... nor did I use axle straps. I saw no need for them.

Nor did I notice any ill-effects of what could technically be termed decreased suspension travel...

But, I didn't race my Beetle -- it was a daily driver that I played with on the weekends...