upright turbo build

[Clatter]

Welp, you could very well make an argument that a type 4 doesn't need a counterweighted crank,
But,
A type 1 beetle motor -needs- one to rev over 5400RPM for any length of time.
This is well known/documented.
it's not a flat/pancake motor thing..

Most will tell you to stay away from solid mounts on the street.
A whole 'nuther subject; My $.02 is go with a kafer bar and just the bellhousing part of the padded strap kit,
And maybe a front mount of some kind..


It's hard to make good enough flow thru the heads to rev over 6,000 or so with a type 4.
As well as get the rods to hang together, due to the ratio, and the weight, among other things..
Therefore,
It makes perfect sense for you to stick to a stock crank with a dynamic balance,
As well as stock rods with the upgraded ARP bolts.
These are things that a local FLAPS/V8 kind of shop should be able to handle..

And, seeings as you already will have your hands plenty full with engine management affairs..

Throw in that you just bought a set of pistons with 24 pins,
Your story can pretty much be written at this point.

Did you look at Wally's build?
Epic, and with a stock crank..

Some details, the right cam, heads checked out, and you're there..

No need to go exotic with internals if you are going to make your power at low revs with a turbo.

[tonyorlo]

I’m definitely not doubting the need for counter weights, I’ve just heard it from multiple V8 guys.

I do worry about something breaking going with a full solid mounted transmission. I am going to make a stiffer bellhousing mount, using stock type mounts front and rear. I think I can make my own Keifer brace.

I don’t really plan to rev much past 6k anyway. I want to use hydraulic lifters so that will be a limiter. As of right now I only have the pistons, no rods or crank. I was planning on buying stock length H beam rods with ARP bolts, and the stock 2.0 crank from aircooled.net. I figure that should be stout enough for me.

I’ve tried calling a few of the cam companies but they haven’t really been any help on the phone. They have directed me to their web sites to get help selecting a grind. I figure when I am ready, I will really push the issue with them and I’m sure someone can get me an answer.

I know power is made in the heads, but my KISS plan should allow the turbo to overcome some of the in efficiencies. I also have an air to air intercooler and will be using meth injection.

I have seen Wally’s build, it was an inspiration for me to do this. The fact thag he made thag much power on a stock crank shows what t4s can do.

[tonyorlo]

I purchased a dial indicator to check my valve guide wear. I measured all of my valves and picked the best intake and exhaust valve to use. I am having a hard time getting a accurate measurement. I am going to buy a set of small hole gauges, that should be much easier to use.

Is there a way I can check the valve seats at home?

Edit: they clearly need replaced

[tonyorlo]

Brining this back brick the dead again.

Years ago I mentioned using the 2l pistons with the 1.8 rods and crank. Piledriver said the jugs would need to be cut to get the correct deck height. Is this something that has been done before, or is it even doable? He made a good point with the cooling tin, I would be able to make it out of fiberglass so it would fit the engine.

I know there is no replacement for displacement, but I feel I would be happy with the 1.8 and the turbo. Just tossing the idea out there?

Edit:
What about cutting the case? Bad idea? I am looking at close to 6mm, that seems like a lot.

[Piledriver]

So... whats the dish volume in those pistons?

Looks like Bus pistons from here. which is ~ok if you desire a 7:1 static cr with a near stock cam and 50-55cc chambers. In a Bus.

If you are still building a mild turbo motor, probably ok choice to keep the cr down.

[tonyorlo]

I have not CCd them yet, I need to buy a kit so I can check them and check the heads.

The heads are bus heads. I see some cams marketed for turbos, I just planned to run a stocking cam with a wide lobe angle. I do want to run hydraulic lifters as well. Will 7:1 be too low? I hate to have serious turbo lag. It’s going to be street driven 100% of the time.

The shaving down the jugs or the deck on the case probably isn’t a good idea. The idea there was to use the stock 1.8 crank and rods.

I have all the “how to” manuals I could buy for the type 4 and have read them. I’ve made a list of parts I plan to buy, but is there anything special I should purchase? I plan on buying all the shims after I get it together and measured. I will get all the obvious stuff, but I am thinking about certain fasteners or parts that need to be replaced that wouldn’t normally need to be done on say a small block Chevy?

[tonyorlo]

Back to the basics for the 100th time.

205.5 - 33 - 36 = 136.5
Total Deck Height - 1.8 crank - 2.0 piston = 136.5 con rod.

I had some spare time and searched through rod lengths between 136-141 planning on adjusting deck height with shims. I came across these rods.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/esp- ... /overview/

They are 2.46mm longer than the perfect 136.5, so I should be able to shim up to that? Now every measurement is wrong, but they are all smaller than the stock 1.8/2.0.

Pin dia - 3.03mm smaller
Big end dia - 7.02 smaller
big end width - .51 larger

I am not an engine builder by any means, and I have never had machine work done to this extent so I hope I dont sound dumb by suggesting these ideas. Are those numbers too far off to be machined? I feel like the big end diameter is too far to machine that much off. Also my idea was to source a good original rod to have machined.

[wreck]

Those rods may not work because of clearance issues with the bolts facing the wrong way .

[Piledriver]

IIRC Wally made well over 400hp with prepped, stock 1.7l rods.
Others have made stupid power with properly prepped stock 2L rods.
Their issue is not strength, but weight at high revs.
You arent pulling high revs.
Spend that money on something more useful to the target goal, like forged pistons or a J&S Safeguard, or maybe towards an MS3.

[tonyorlo]

Ok so re thinking this for the 20th time. I am now thinking of abandoning the Mahle pistons, using the jugs and buying weisco 94s with the 1.8 pin height and diameter.

I did see wally took a lot of material off the stock rods. Should I ask to have something like that done if I get mine resized?

Am I out of line for asking for $200-250 for the new Mahle pistons? I may try to sell them to help buy the weiscos.

[Piledriver]

Wally wanted to rev well past 7k... had the heads to make it worthwhile.
He eventually went to aftermarket rods, forget which ones.

As far as the Mahles go I would not split the set they are worth decent money to someone building a Bus.
You can buy just jugs.

[tonyorlo]

Now I am looking for advice because I have never ordered a set of “custom” pistons. I contacted Wiseco and they can change the pin height and diameter, but is there anything else I need to consider when ordering them. Piledriver, you did mention going with a different alloy, 4032 I think? I will specify that.

http://vwparts.aircooled.net/AA-94mm-Cy ... 400t4l.htm

I plan on ordering these jugs.

[Piledriver]

You will need to check the AA jugs for diameter, taper, and length, correcting if needed, , then order the pistons with the correct clearance.
EMW can do this, John may be able to do it as well.

If you go with 4032, the cylinder clearance needed is typically .0015-002", or about what the stock pistons require.
If you go with 2618 or other 2xxx alloy, it needs to be closer to .005", and the ring lands tend to wear out around 10K miles.
Wiseco does not recommend 2xxx alloy pistons for endurance racing.

[Ol'fogasaurus]

Understanding Aluminum alloys is important, a short introduction to AL alloys: https://aluminum.org/resources/industry ... alloys-101

As I remember the 2XXX alloy is softer than some AL alloys so the temper is important; it also has a lot of positives. When I was working with AL I was using 2XXX, 6XXX and 7XXX series alloys which were the most common alloys I was directed to use. I think I used 5XXX once or twice; it is something used a lot in the marine industry and aircraft skin. The different XXX are numbers with indicate the different alloy build ups.

This is a bit of what Piledriver was talking about which is a good input.

Lee

[tonyorlo]

Well I want the engine to last, I doubt I will put 10k miles on it but I never know. Reading the descriptions of the alloys, 2xxx seems to be the ideal alloy, but I will take the manufactures advice. The 4xxx alloy sounds forgiving.

I was looking at other manufactures like Rods, Diamond and JE and noticed that most offer piston guided rod pistons. Well that got me thinking again, if I am going to order a custom set of pistons, why not run a more affordable T1 rod? I went back through this thread and read what Piledriver said about them, but I am having a hard time understanding how the oiling works. Will I need to modify the con rod to work with in the piston guided rod setup?

https://aapistons.com/collections/conne ... rod-set-vw

The rods I am considering.