lowering a 411/ 412

[Bill K.]

(bill)
so your saying with the e30 springs ..the audi cartridges just fit in and bolt up
as they are same length?

No, the Audi insert does NOT just fit in and bolt up. To use the Audi inserts without Ray's rod extension, the following modifications are required: 1) spring plate modified for the Mazda bearing, 2) bottom insert spacer, 3) radial top insert spacer, and 4) spring plate-to-strut bearing spacer. All of these are custom parts requiring fabrication. #2 & #3 are needed with Ray's rod extension also. Without #1 & #4, the Audi rod end (smaller diameter portion with thread) is too short. With #1 and with a too short a version of #4, the Audi rod end fits, but spring plate rubs on the strut bearing mount when a sudden big bump is hit (my car does this now as I don't have the proper #4 installed). When I get #4 made, I'll show you.

I haven't used the standard E30 spring with the Audi insert, but I think the spring is too long. The strut assembly would probably have no droop travel because the Audi insert without a rod extension would compress the standard E30 spring beyond the load applied by the car. I think the trunk would need to be loaded to get droop travel back.

The standard E30 spring works with the 411/412 insert (see my thread), but insert replacement is limited to NOS availability.

The E30 M3 spring is shorter and works great with the Audi insert without rod extension (using mods #1-4). Insert replacement is not limited to NOS availability.

The E30 M3 spring also works with a 411/412 insert without needing to do #1-4 above (see Wally's thread), but insert replacement is limited to NOS availability.

[raygreenwood]

OoooH....Bill that reminds me. I have been meaning to ask someone who knows. Are the Koni 411/412 replacement cartridge that people have been sourcing recently....NOS....or new issue? Ray

[Bill K.]

I don't know Ray. The one's I used were NOS Koni 86P-1832 Special "D" with the '73 rod end length. They have adjustable rebound. I bought them four years ago and they have been used for about 6 months.

[bradey bunch]

Ok. So here it is with cut (2 1/3 coils) E30 springs. I just got back from my trip (about 400 total miles) and it feels great on the freeway (just needs more power ).

I cannot load hundreds of pounds in my trunk though, but hey, thats not what I intend to use the car for so I am ok with that. We did pack it to the top with food though. The ride is stiff, but once again, I am ok witht that. I cannot speed over speedbumps, but for a lowered car it takes them pretty good.

Keep in mind it has 195/60 tires on the front, and 205/60s on the rear, so they are smaller than stock. I have included a picture of the spindle to top of fender for comparison with those who have other size tires.

overall:


front


rear (cut stock coils)


front, body to ground, behind front wheel, 5.5"


middle of hub to top of fender, 11.5"


I could probably take the front down another inch, but I would have to cut the bumpstop.

EDIT: I cut normal e30 springs NOT the shorter M3 springs.

[sharkskinman]

i really like the stance of that
maybe either lower in the back or the front a little bit higher

just so its level and not with a small rake

but that would be a nice stance with some 17s or 18s
i think they would fit perfectly

whats the tire sizes and are the stock wheels
Bug?
or type 3?

so did you measure the springs (compressed)
or ride height or height to fenders
Before you cut the springs?

what kind of Drop are we talking?

looks good tho

What kind of wheels are you thinking??
i can always photoshop them in for you

[raygreenwood]

Those look like the 356 style "chromies" I have on mine. I have the 5.5's and I beleive they are type 3 offset. Ray

[Bill K.]

Ok. So here it is with cut (2 1/3 coils) E30 springs

Braden, your car is shaping up nicely. Good work!

I'm curious about how the cutting went. What was the difference in free length of the spring after cutting? How much difference is there in ride height (door sill-to-ground) from left to right for front and rear?

I assume you are using stock strut inserts. How much spring preload, if any, do you have at full rod extension (full droop)?

How much did you cut from the rears?

See ya,
Bill

[raygreenwood]

Cutting the rear springs will lower the car but is not a great method for a daily driver. Sooner or later it results in a damaged/dented shock body. Been there...done that. Its one of the very first things I tried for lowering long ago.

The problem you will see anytime you lift the rear all the way off the ground. When the shock goes to full extension with no body weight.....with an uncut spring....the coil at full length only has one half of one edge in full contact with the seat around the hole in the trailing arm that the shock comes through. Its just enough to keep it propery centered.

If you remove a whole coil an large bump you go over...or deep Dallas sized pot holes....if the shock goes to 3/4 stroke or larger the spring will unseat, one edge will drop sideways into the conical recession for the shock in the trailing arm....and will ALWAYS result in a busted dented shock body when the body weight comes back down.

Also when you have cut springs, anytime you lift the car off the ground thesprings full into the conical recession and will be very difficult to keep striaght while you lower the car enough to keep it centered. Forget to do it.....busted shock.

This is not something I would recommend for a daily driver. Ray

[bradey bunch]

OK heres the thing. I work on my car ALOT. and I have access to a shop with hoists, so I dont mind tweaking/toying with the suspension regularily.

I have had no problems with the rear going over bumps at all. The springs have not come unseated.. yet.I have no idea how much was cut, but I have some spare stock springs so I can count tomorrow night when I weld up some exhaust

I put limiting straps on the front to prevent the springs coming unseated...
I realize all the implications of lowering it this way but I dont mind the maintenence. and when the time comes, I plan on getting balljoints made or adapting some others to it, as well as using audi strut inserts with a shorter extension on the strut, so the spring is slightly compressed. I can make some of the requested measurements tomorrow night.

sharkskinman, I plan on keeping the wheels it has now on (which are just 5.5" mangels (brazilian) chromies from cip, as ray said), but all I was saying is that with stock wheels, they will fill the wheel well better, but there may be some fender rubbing on turns with stock wheels also.

As for the stance, I believe that the rear is actually the same as the front suspension wize, but the slightly taller rear wheel makes it look a bit raked. In real life, it actually appears to slope towards the rear a bit.

And as an update, I was haveing idiling issues earlier, well it turned out my decel valve was hooked up wrong, therefore pulling air at idle must have gotten them mixed up while the engine was out...

Braden

[raygreenwood]

OK heres the thing. I work on my car ALOT. and I have access to a shop with hoists, so I dont mind tweaking/toying with the suspension regularily.

Yes...thats exactly where I was when I was working on all of these combinations. I worked on it daily because I could!


I have had no problems with the rear going over bumps at all. The springs have not come unseated.. yet.I have no idea how much was cut, but I have some spare stock springs so I can count tomorrow night when I weld up some exhaust

Sorry I lost track here....were the rear coil stock or were they from something else?

I put limiting straps on the front to prevent the springs coming unseated...
I realize all the implications of lowering it this way but I dont mind the maintenence. and when the time comes, I plan on getting balljoints made or adapting some others to it, as well as using audi strut inserts with a shorter extension on the strut, so the spring is slightly compressed. I can make some of the requested measurements tomorrow night.


Bravo.....very good! Limiting straps! Bear in mind...I'm not beating on anyones mods. As long as you are aware and are working on the possible pitfalls...and let everyone know. I'm not sure that using a shorter stub and compresing the spring further is a good idea. Much more and you WILL have the corner and lift issues that Bill K. speculated about. Sharskinman and I were talking the other night...and we think we have a solution.

Bear with us here. Lets say that to install the Audi strut cartridge...you need a 6" spacer underneath (I can't remember the exact length needed so this is just for concept). When using the adaptor stub...it lowers the care about 1" and change. Lets say for the say of the conversation that the loaded at rest (on the workbench) spring length between top plate and bottom perch is 14". With me so far?

Ok...so lets say you wanted to go 2" lower.
If you could machine the adaptor stub two inches shorter.....which you cannot because of the internal thread depth.....but lets say you could....it would compress the spring a further 2"....lowering the top plate and bushing (lowering the car) andd making the total at rest compressed spring length 12" instead of 14".

BUT:...at this point you are past the soft comfort range of the spring (for sure on the stock...don't know about the E30 spring). That would be dangerous and very rough and damaging ride with a stock spring.

BUT:....lets try this instead. Lets not change the stub design. Lets go back to that 6" spacer under the Audi strut cartridge.
We want 2" of drop.
So we cut 2" off teh spacer....making it 4" long...and put the 2" you removed....on top of the Audi strut cartridge inside of the strut housing. This still makes the Audi cartridge fit tightly. Now....to keep from over compressing the spring....we cut off the lower spring perch and drop it 2".....and weld it back on. Now you stuill have the 14" at rest spring length...and your 2" drop....and you retain proper spring ratio.
Ray

[Bill K.]

cut off the lower spring perch and drop it 2".....and weld it back on.

That would work with narrow rims. But with 17x7.5 rims, the fender or perch would probably rub. A small diameter spring would probably be the ticket for this approach.

[bradey bunch]

Ray, if i kept the cut e30 springs, I would use a shorter stub to barley compress the e30 springs so when I jack it up I dont need limiting straps. I would not do it to lower it further. I would have to get the audi struts and do some measuring of the spring uncompressed and make the extension 3/4" shorter than that. At the moment I have stock inserts.

I did not get a chance to measure uncompresed length and such, because I used a 4 post lift tonight and not a 2 post (so the wheels didnt leave the ground), but I did count how many coils were on the rear (and stock ) springs: 7 coils. I dont know what stock is, but I can check later to see how much was cut off.

I also measured the ride height more accuratley, the difference from bottom of car to ground front to rear is 1", the rear being higher, but measured from spindle to top of fender, the rear is only .25" taller. Oh, and Bill. i'm sorry, I just realized I misunderstood how you asked me to measure. I measured the body just in front of the rear wheel and just behind the front... not the doors. And thanks for the kind words Bill, as you know I love all the mods you have been doing

And Sharkskinman, thanks for posting pics of the exhaust system on your car in another thread, it helped inspire the one I made tonight! pics will come soon on another thread.

[sharkskinman]

in some aspects i do agree that a 17x7 or so wouldnt fit right that low
BUT
im also taking into acount the space in the fenders as well
the wheels im looking on putting on
is either something a little bigger or alot bigger
BUT
the 17s or 18s will have a Lip so the offset will be lower than stock
pushing the wheels out and away from the springs

with all the cars i have had (recently jeeps and vws)
ikve gotten pretty good at fiting tires and wheels on ...


on my t3
if i mounted a 205/50/17 with 55 offset (redrilled brakes)
the outer face would match the 185/65/15s with ET45
on it now
it wont fit that way

but the adapters (1" thick)
would set it out far enough to rub fender
But a stack of 1/4" and 1/2" porsche spacers (redrilled brakes)
would fit it Exactly where i want them
All of this was researched Before i bought any of it

use this
http://www.rimsntires.com/rt_specs.jsp
its by far the best tire calculator i have found

this is a photoshop of said page
i did for figuring out sprint stars on a type 3


i can photoshop ALOT so if anyone wants mods done to there car?
let me know
paint/wheels/tint/etc...

[raygreenwood]

cut off the lower spring perch and drop it 2".....and weld it back on.

That would work with narrow rims. But with 17x7.5 rims, the fender or perch would probably rub. A small diameter spring would probably be the ticket for this approach.

Yes...I think it would also. I have not lowered the perch on one but just looking at it...you are close with 5.5's. Not dangerous...but close. Ray

[sharkskinman]

here

i like how low your car is

Now with some 17s or 18s


Sweet!




i think im going to have to get a garage at my Apt
i need a place to take stuff apart and put it back together

my rear is as low as i would want it for now
and i know it will raise when i lower the front

a guy has some 325is front springs but i dont know if they will work

in lowering it
i like a stiff suspension too
my T3 has monroe front bus oil shocks
and altho the front is OK
the rear NEEDS to be stiffer

but where to find them that short...Hm?,,,,,