T1 trans R&R

[H2OSB]

So I looked at Wolfburg West at their mounts. They have their own heavy duty mounts. How do they compare to CBs Rhino mounts?

What I had PLANNED to do was convert to the pre-'73 cradle and mounts on the rear to use Rhino mounts and keep the stock style 3 bolt front mount. To the front I will add a bolt-on FastFab mid mount. To triangulate everything, I have a Mendeola "Stiffy" Kafer Cup bar. Not sure how much it contributes to the rear, but to the overall stiffness of the chassis I have bolt on 'vert rails(no, it's not a 'vert), which I may some day tie to a roll hoop. I had taken a padded strap out of my plans then saw one on a vendor's site and thought I'd ask.

H2OSB

[Ian Godfrey]

I'm still 1 step in front of your questions ...... luckily
the WW heavy duty mounts fit perfectly in a pre 73 cradle, the CB grey I found a tiny bit thick and sanded the curved face a bit to fit. The CB's are noticeably firmer but noisier.
I think your idea of the early cradle is good too. I haven't driven a car with the 3 bolt front mount so I can't comment.
I think the Kafer bar is essential and makes padded straps completely redundant. I've only used Berg mid mounts but the Fast Fab one looks very good.

[Clatter]

WRT the trans strap; take and think about it for a minute..

Speaking just about the strap that goes over the bellhousing..

Sure, you can support the horns with your Kafer bar or a cage,
But what is to stop the two little pads at the bottom cradle from getting ripped apart?
Those tear in half over time on old stock stuff even without abuse.
Limiting movement (give) in the horns is going to make them have an even rougher go at life.

So, I'll offer that the over-bellhousing strap is needed to save your cradle mounts.
Or at least stopping movement there, which can lead to wheel hop..

The front strap that goes around the horns near the gear carrier, i don't run that one,
You can use any one of the different front mount solutions instead..

[Ol'fogasaurus]

The Kaffer/Truss bar helps keep the trans mount (AKA pickle forks) from doing the "dance of death" ranging from up and down, side to side, circles and even figure-eights. I recently posted some pix (viewtopic.php?f=11&t=152157) on how the tunnel is built but there is somethings I didn't add... yet. As far as joining the upper and lower parts of the "tunnel" together they spot weld the flanges together. The flanges do add some stiffness especially to the "pickle forks" as far as "side to side" movement but the flanges should also be edge welded to ensure the flange stiffness will still work. Spot welds do bulge a times and/or come/pop a part giving access to rust in the flanges themselves.

Solid mount engine and trans kits usually come with two straps which are a good thing to have keeping the engine and trans assy solid in the mount (pickle forks). If you are still using stock mounts the straps are a good thing to have if you are even slightly abusing you sweet little darling .

In my opinion, if you have IRS then the "Stiffy" or "Truetrac" by Mendola which has a slightly different hookup by also connecting to the IRS pivot making it potentially stronger. The reason I am playing with something different is that most of the Truss/Kaffer bars hook to the shock tower. My rear shocks have centering spacers on both sides of the upper shock mount so that when the adapter mount that the bolt goes through is in place the bolt needed gets to be 6" or longer which "bothers" me. Different shocks will give different bolt lengths but in the past I have seen rear torsion housings that were missing the mount for the shock mounting: e.g., were broken off.

The Truss/Kaffer bars are adjustable in width and the connection to the pickle forks making them easy to install and adjust.

Another option... if you have, for example, a Baja would be for the connection of the tubes to the pickle forks but then connect to the bottom of the body, especially if you have a cage, that you can connect to giving you a doubler and another path for load transfer.

For what it is worth.

Lee

[H2OSB]

Ok guys, reviving this old thread. I recently asked questions of both Mr. Godfrey and Bruce via PM that had already been discussed in my own damn thread.

I'm now actually back at the trans business. I had been finishing up the front end because I've finally FULLY sorted my front brakes(I'll explain in a minute), so after R&Ring everything at the front of the car I'm onto the rear.

I had the nose cone off yesterday of my zig zag case gearbox and didn't notice the excessive wear Bruce showed in the pic above, however, I admit I wasn't looking specifically for that wear. Some time back, when I was looking for something to do on the car but didn't have a lot of time I gave a semi-vigorous attempt at cleaning the trans with cleaning solution and various wire brushes. The resulting sit around time the trans has had showed only leaking from the reverse switch. I seem to recall some goo under each of the drive flanges prior to my wire brushing, so I'm thinking I might replace those seals as insurance.

I did install my early style cradle and gray rear mounts. I noticed the gray mounts have VW part numbers all over them so I'm thinking they're not Rhino mounts, but instead are the 78 durometer mounts from WW. I BELIEVE I ordered them with a slew of parts to restore the used, factory pop out quarter windows I bought for my car.

VIA PM, I had a small discussion with Bruce recently regarding my Mendeola Stiffy Kafer Cup bar. I must very respectfully disagree about one aspect of the bar. Though I do agree the two bars going from the diagonal arm pivot to the 3-way bracket(at the upper shock mount) don't do anything to control movement of the trans forks, I BELIEVE their function is trianulate lateral movement of the shock towers.

This is something we Super Beetle owner understand as an upper strut tie bar works in exactly the same way. You use a upper strut mount tie bar to prevent the strut towers from moving literally relative to each other, but for ultimate control you triangulate each tower to the nose area of the trunk to prevent them from moving literally, in unison. I believe that is the function of those two bars. I'm actually kinda excited to autocross the car with the addition of the Stiffy bar. I didn't have that on my previous Super Beetle.

Regarding my 26mm torsion bars. I know going to 26 from 23.5 seems like a big jump, but after seeing Bruce's great numbers above, in which he stated 26mm is approximately 30% stiffer than 23.5s, I do believe that should do the trick to keep me off the bump stops.

So a quick recap of my rear set up. I will use the early style cradle with the gray factory rear mounts and a new, stock front, 3-bolt, a FastFab bolt on midmount(sorry Bruce, I simply don't have the fab skills to make the beautiful alu mount like yours. I would have to hire it out, and a midmount in the hand is worth two in the fab shop ), 26mm torsion bars, a Mendeola Stiffy truss bar, and MOST LIKELY GAZ shocks. I'm usually quite the Koni fanboi, but GAZ shocks are cheaper and are externally adjustable, where Konis must be removed to change the valving. I will also use stock size CVs and a stock differential.

Brakes aside.....when I got into Super Beetles in the early 90s, it was the heyday of the German KaferCup racing series. Most of the racers used Porsche 944 brakes front and rear, thus I always wanted to use 944 brakes. In fact, when I started the online car club SuperBeetles Only!, the car I had at that time was a '75 1303 with 944 brakes F&R. Now, they weren't fully sorted, just mounted, and I sold the car before I got everything sorted(I could kick myself for selling that car). Over the years, I learned anecdotally, and independently from two well know guys, Steve Carter from Australia and Wally from the Netherlands, one of the most balanced and effective brake set ups both had run was 914 front brakes with 944 rears. Thus I set out to have this. I will make an incredibly long and frustrating story short to say I now have 944 rear brakes, adapted using tubes and swans from Lanner Khan, and the vented rotor 42mm piston set up from CSP in Germany. I am no longer using Porsche 924 spindles. Some day, when I have the gumption, I'll do a write up on all of my front brake failures in the hope I can prevent someone else from shedding the tears I shed.

H20SB

[Ian Godfrey]

John, that all sounds well though out. Many early 911 have great success with 26mm rear bars so I think that's a good place to start. I think using the softest mounts you can get away with is also good.
For the shocks GAZ are on the cheaper end and the same quality wise. If you could go up to Protech I think it is a better quality shock, less harsh, and should last longer. Better again would be Spax but that might be getting to Koni price

[H2OSB]

Thanks for the Info. I looked at two different Protect sites and couldn't find any listing for VW. SPAX...well, they're expensive. Looks like I'll be giving GAZ a try. Fortunately there are a couple GAZ vendors in the States, so shipping shouldn't be too cost prohibitive. If I buy directly from GAZ in England, they charge 80 Pounds Sterling to ship.

H20SB

[Bruce.m]

I think you slightly misread bruce2 comment.
The torsion bar spring rate increases at the 4th power of the diameter. So 26 divided by 23.5, raised by power of 4 gets 1.498 which equates to 50% increase of spring rate (roughly double the stock spring rate).

On the damper subject.

It’s worth repeating here that koni classic shocks are only adjustable in the rebound direction. The compression resistance is fixed. On the yellow konis the compression is set higher than the reds but still fixed (available for 1303).

With a significant increase in the spring rate, the suspension frequency increases & koni reds are going to under damp (in compression) the spring leading to oscillation.

Most other single adjustable dampers have a fixed ratio between compression & rebound ( typically 1:2 or 1:3), and adjustments change both the compression & rebound together. In your circumstances, that is probably the better option.

[H2OSB]

Most other single adjustable dampers have a fixed ratio between compression & rebound ( typically 1:2 or 1:3), and adjustments change both the compression & rebound together. In your circumstances, that is probably the better option.

Makes sense. Can you please recommend a brand or two that represent this? I will say, years ago, before I purchased shocks for my previous 1303, with 23.5 torsion bars, talking to a Koni rep, he was concerned about the increased spring rate with those bars. He'd probably poop himself if I said I was going to use Koni reds with my 26mm torsion bars

H20SB

[H2OSB]

I'm not fixated on using 26mm torsion bars...except that I own them. I barterd away my other set of 23.5 bars.

I just looked at the Sway-A-Way website. How are hollow bar spring rates calculated? They sell 25mm hollow bars(smallest diameter available in hollow from them). All I know is 23.5 bars were not stiff enough. I'd be down to try several diameters if they weren't such a pain in the ass to change/adjust.

H20SB

[Bruce.m]

If you got the 26mm bars then I’d suggest running them and if it’s too much in practice look for other options. The calc for hollow bars works by working out the rate for the full thickness & subtracting the “missing” core bar’s spring rate, to get the net rate.

With the right amount of damping they (26) might be okay. Under damped springs on the other hand are nasty & make them seem very harsh.

I was looking at Gaz & Protec but that’s partly because I’m UK based. Gaz are cheaper & I’ve read about a few cases of quality problems when the adjuster has seized but that can be easily fixed with a sharp tap (Google it). Protec are Ali so you need to look after the threads, if you go for coilovers . There is a guy on the volks zone forum who worked with them to create a spec for torsion beam chassis but not sure about 1303 front struts. Both these brands should be able to give you enough adjustment to cope with the spring rate for 26mm bar or less if you switch.

I’ve got 23.5mm rear bars & I’m planning to run Koni Yellows at the back. Koni reds on stock suspension gives a fantastic road spec set up. I’m taking a punt the yellows will suit the 30% increase in spring rate knowing they have a higher compression rating.

[H2OSB]

I should get back on VZ. Haven't been on there in a while. Do you have a link for Protech. I couldn't find one that has any VW offering...including watercooled.

I'm not gonna lie, the suspension of my other 1303 was outstanding. The ONLY issues, ever, was hard turn in transition and hard launches like I stated before. If I don't like the way the 26s feel, I will probably just go back to 23.5s with better shocks and live with the occasional bounce off of the bump stops.

My front suspension is coilovers made from Porsche 944 housings with 125# springs. This is exactly what I had on my other car, except I used coilovers meant for a VW Caddy, with 125# springs. Those coilovers were very well made(Raceland, with a TUV approval...for a Caddy), but at full height they were a drop of 63.5mm and I wanted to be able to have less drop if desired.

Anyway thank you all for your contributions to this thread. Very informative!
H20SB

[H2OSB]

I tried to attach a pic of my coilovers but apparently the tech is beyond me

[Bruce.m]

This is his little website. Mostly I think he gets contacted via VZ so it’s not very flash. Never dealt with the guy myself however so can’t personally vouch for the service.

https://royalcountyautosupply.bigcartel.com

[H2OSB]

Dragging this thread back to life as I seem to do.

Small update after more gleened info. I spoke with Jak Rizzo out of Austraila. Old friend from back when SuperBeetles Only! was founded. He is running a Subaru WRX engine with nearly the EXACT springs as I am...26mm rear and 944 front struts, though fixed height and 150# springs. He said he's been running heavy duty KYBs on the rear for years and has had no issues with the increased spring rate of his 26mm torsion bars. They're made for increased rate. On the front he uses Sachs made for 944. He relocated the lower spring seat on his struts for a static 2.5 inches(63.5mm? For you non-Americans) of drop, so I know the inserts can handle sitting 2 inches lower with my coilovers.

I discovered I would need to clearance the upper shock mount bolt access holes to install the Mendeola stiffy bar. IMO it was quite a bit of clearancing, and I've never heard that mentioned anywhere online, but I suppose that's what it costs to play.

My only other real update is I've decided to forego the T4 engine. With my planned usage, the additional cost of the T4 was not justifiable. I truely believe the T4 is the evolution of the T1, and ultimately a better engine, but I probably won't put more than 2500 miles on the car, per year, so the T1 will do the job just fine. I intend to build a well thought out 2110.

Thanks again for all the help and guidance since I started this thread.

Kindest regards
John List (aka H2OSB)