won't start troubleshooting, getting nowhere!

vwbill · Post by **vwbill** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:34 pm

Hey, I wish there was a way to test most of the problems from the test plug! I wish if you made something from parts from Radio Shack you could make it plug and play,lol! Plug and have red and green LED's and bingo found it! LOL! Heck, these days I could have every function graphed out on one of those Scientific Calculators you can get from Wally world! Guess I need to take some computer building classes.
Better yet just check it all and do it right is the best way!! Take your time and it will be right! Bill

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:56 pm

Actually...pretty much all of what I just posted can be and was tested from the test socket. It tests loads all over the system. Most models also gave a surprisingly close estimate of compression due to load on the starter from that test sockt. Ray

vwbill · Post by **vwbill** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:09 pm

So, that's the one white wire that goes to the start! You have to love that! So ahead of its time! Bill

vwbill · Post by **vwbill** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:50 pm

Hey ,I was looking closer at the wiring diagram and see by the wire path number 50 is the starter path wire along with test pin 12(second row from the left bottom pin of six), So if it is then could you put a test light to the pin and move the shifter from either Park or Neutral and see if you get anything then wouldnt it have to be one of the other parts like the ignition switch or starter or selenoid? Kinda like Test plug pin 15 goes to the kick down switch for the kick down solenoid and then to the backup light part of the shifter switch then to the back up lights.. Ok, this is funny but did you check the safety Belt Relay or maybe a wire going to it is off, maybe wire 50? Wire 50 comes from the ignition switch to the Safety belt Relay terminal "C".
Hey also try turning on your light switch with the key on to check it the ignition switch has term 30 and 50 switched, if the others were switched then the starter should turn with the key in the on position that's if the seat belt relay is getting power and wired right along with the neutral switch too....Sorry..... if the lights dont come on also with the starter......
Ok, Ok, you said the warning lights got brighter and the brake warning/seat belt light is on so the seat belt relay should be getting juice and the 50 wire is right on the ignition then it's either at the neutral switch or starter....... Hope this helps some how....!!! Bill
p.s. Maybe "Ray" can read and see if I'm losin it,lol!

Longbeach412 · Post by **Longbeach412** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:07 pm

Hey vwbill, I am still in the work-on-it-as-you-get-time mode. So far, very frustrating. But I'll tell ya this much, the starter is ok and the N switch has already been bypassed. My next suspect is the seat belt/buzzer relay as its warning light gets brighter with the 2nd turn of ign. key. So I'll be taking down the fuse box (not looking forward to it!) in the next few days and bypassing that relay. Will let you know. Regards

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:49 pm

Don't get crazy worrying about the buzzer. It affects nothing. In fact...I'm surprised..and happy...its still connected. When you pull the fuse block out of the slot...the buzzer is the small square relay at the right end...just pull it out. It affects nothing. But its a good way to keep from locking your keys in the car. Be sure you have the saftey switch bypassed completely. Trust me...its something very simple. Ray

Longbeach412 · Post by **Longbeach412** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 8:36 pm

If it affects nothing then am I barking at the wrong tree? I only want to direct my time & energy at solving the starting problem. Why does the illuminated sign "fasten seat belt" get brighter when the key is turned the 2nd turn?

vwbill · Post by **vwbill** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:28 am

Hey, you said you had the fasten seat belt light on and the brake light so I would think the seat belt relay is getting juice from the 30 wire. Did you say you heard some kinda relay click when you turned the key to the on position but no fuel pump running. There are two fuel pump relays that have the red/blk strp wire(mine is in the engine bay left rear, under dash master cly.). The starter has that wire and the twin whites. I think if the lights get brighter then the ignition switch is closing and going to the seat belt relay. If the ignition was wrong I would think it would try to engage the starter at the on position. So it would be one of the fuel pump relays, starter wires.
Did you ever turn the emergency flasher on to test and the lights(high/low). How about a test light at the aux air regulator(test if the fuel pump relay is getting juice) and turn the keyon and starter position.
Sorry, I'm not able to help more! I have been looking at the wire paths too much....! The red/blk strp is connected to the battery. Let's see, what is there in that wire path that it can be, Fuel pump relays, starter/solenoid, neutral switch, fuse, Ignition switch, seat belt relay, White twin lead wires, relay grounds to earth, ???... Good Luck, bill
P.s. ok, Can you jump the starter from the neutral switch from the battery to the starter and make it turn over or do you need to pull the white twins off? Then you could do a jump from the test plug center slider horizontal male connector for power keyon/off or where it tees off on the right side engine bay(red/wht strp) for the coil and pump relay connector from the aux air regulator. I dont know, Ray..............!

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:20 pm

Something to think about. The 1st position on the ignition switch ...which turns on the fuel pump, should not dim the light on the seat belt switch. It should also not get brighter when you get to position 2 which is start position. This is telling me that you may have either (a) the fuel pump connections backward, (b) a relay wire backward...meaning the relay output to the starter relay is off when it should be on, (c) a bad ignition switch, or poor connections at the ignition switch.

How do you know the switch is known to be good? Is it new? Its very possible that you have a bad wire at the plug. You can pull the plug out of the back of switch..and you should be able to hot wire the ignition and the engine from there....without the switch. Also make sure, that if you are bypassing...temporarily I hope...the neutral safety switch...that you have terminals 5 and 50a securely bridged. Also, once started, you mihtwant to disconnect them. They are only due to be connected when in neutral.

You really need to trace all the wires with a volt meter...to both of the relays. You need to take the relays out...both of them...and test them for basic electrical operation. Meaning shoot the power to them and make sure the solenoid is working. If it works...make sure the two or three contacts its hooking together..actually are making contact. I would bet that you either have a misconnected wire, a wire broken insode the insulation...or a bad relay. Ray

vwbill · Post by **vwbill** » Tue Oct 05, 2004 8:03 pm

Hey Ray, So what is the Safety belt relay doing in the starter circuit?
Is the shifter neutral switch a break to ground via the safety belt relay? So is there juice to the starter always? What does the ECU wires do in that circuit from the starter solenoid terminal? Does it ground out the Fuel injection relay? Does the F.I. relay always have juice also? So if he grounded the wiring from the starter to the neutral switch should the starter engage? If he powered the Fuel pump from the aux air regulator plug that goes to the F.I. relay tee which should go to the pump he could see if it was the relay for the F.I. then if jumping the starter it would tell you if it was the safety belt relay or before in the circuit up to the key???
Could the J21 wires from the F.I. relay and starter for the ECU be bad at the ECU or the ECU??? I wonder when this problem really occured! Did it happen after the dent near the ECU? They have been working the starter circuit. If the starter and F.I. relay need ground to complete the circuit and he doesnt get either the starter or pump to run does it mean he has a ground lead problem(disconnected or switched)?? I think he should see what is working on the car also, ie. lights ect..................!! Then you can tell where power is going! bill
p.s. Ray does the driver door have to be closed to start????

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed Oct 06, 2004 8:27 pm

Nope...teh door does not have to be closed. The door buzzer is a seprate animal. I will track the wiring tonight and see what I can see. Ray

Longbeach412 · Post by **Longbeach412** » Mon Nov 01, 2004 1:52 pm

Hey folks, back from the dead, been busy, sick, and everything else in between. But I haven't forgot my baby and your generous advice. So today I finally had a chance to take a crack at her again. Took down the fuse box and found the seat belt relay completely rusted. A problem apparently well known to the 74 bug crowd. So, I took it out and bridged the main starter wires wires and VOILA! she turned over. The happiness I felt can not be expressed in less that R rated terms! Anyways, the fuel pump however still gets no juice. I have a good pump that I use as a tester and have replaced the fuel pump relay under the back seat. My question is: does the seat belt relay also interrupt the fuel pump circuit? if so, which wires do I need to bridge? And if not, what else might be the cause?
Thanks for your help.

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:10 pm

For the life of me I can't remember if teh seat belt relay affected the pump as well. But...grounds do. Also, check the positive wires at the battery. Don't go bridging a bunch of wires or you will be sorry....trust me. Do this right. This cas system as for fuel pumps and relays should not be screwed with. But...I am glad you8 got this turning over. I knew it had to be something in the neutral safety switch. If there is corrosion in one realay...check everything in the fuse blcok. This generally means that either corner of the windshield is leaking, the grommet on the speedometer cable is leaking...or someone drilled a screw hole into the fender well. The fuel pump circuit is very simple. Just track it back from teh pump with a voltmeter. Also check the ignition switch. Ray

Longbeach412 · Post by **Longbeach412** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:36 pm

I think the culprit is the speedometer grommet. Now bear in mind this is a 74, and I am gathering that its funky year electrically and relay wise. When I took the fuse box assy down [keep in mind I have no ideas how other T4s are laid out] it had relays plugged into it throughout its whole length, and they all had corrosion from water sitting on top. The worst case was the seat belt relay, it was totaly covered. But the relay next to it (3 plug type) is also in questionable shape and it clicks when the ign is turned on. So, is that the pump relay? The other relay that clicks is a long beast in on the rear firewall, is that the main power relay? it also has some speaker wires bridging it to a plug, and this bridging dont look factory to me but I could be wrong. Once I physically locate the relays in the pump circuit or confirm my guesses with you people about which is which, then I will test them. Good to be back to the fold and many thanks for the advice.

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Sat Nov 06, 2004 8:15 pm

The relays are pretty standard. All type 4's are like that. Its whyI suggested that the rest of the relays may be bad. The fuel pump relay is enerally not in the fuse block. Its either under the dash on the pedal cluster...closer to the right...or under the back seat on some.

But...check this out. You got water in the relays? Then you got corroded connections at all of them...AND..there is dusty gray suff on all of the fuse tabs...riiiiight? That can cause all of this. Take a dremel at low speed....with a wire brush...pull all the fuses out...clean the top and bottom lightly till they gelam. World of difference.

The relays on the bottom of th fuse block are generally...door buzzer (small square, three prong left end), next is usually another small square but 5 prong.....rear defroster realay. Then long square...blinker/hazards. Fat square...headlights/brights. There can be one or two more. Read us part #'s. Ray

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