won't start troubleshooting, getting nowhere!

Longbeach412 · Post by **Longbeach412** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 7:32 am

Ok, I did the fuse terminal cleaning this morning as suggested and had planned myself. There were 2 red fused terminals with some dusty gray stuff on them as you said, so I cleaned them all pretty good. without a manual I am guessing one of those must've been for the fuel pump. I still got no change in the problem. You say that the fuel pump relay can not be attached to the fuse box, so I am still trying to locate it. the facts are; when I turn the ign to 2nd position I get 2 clicks, one from a fuse box relay (3 prong), and one from a large relay on the engine firewall. Going to look under the back seat, I find 3 relays, the two on the right look like they might be for the defroster and for the gas heater. But the one on the left looks alot like a typical 4 prong fuel pump relay and it DOES NOT click. I replaced it and it still does not click. So by deduction I assumed that it can not be the fuel pump relay (?). Now, how many clicking relays am I supposed to hear? I already got 2 as in my D-Jet Type3. Is it the same with L-Jet?. I'll get the US nos on those fuse box relays later on in the day. Many thanks

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Sun Nov 07, 2004 1:47 pm

Yes, your relay very well could be in the fuse block in the last year of the car. If its not, you will find it on the sheet metal right underneath the brake master cylinder. If its not there, it could be in the fuse block. The one in the engine compartment is the fuel injection voltage supply relay.

If you have wet relays in the fuse block...pull out the one that clicks whn you turn on the engine. Then clean all of its wires...then unfasten the tabs that hold the cover on and clean the contacts within. Now....put it back in, hook a volt meter to the fuel pump plug itself...at the pump, have someone turn teh key and see if you have power? if yes...its aobviously a bad pump. If no....and the relay is working...check the fuel pump wires from end to end with voltmeter. Connection? Good. Now...plug in the pump...turn on the key. No buzz? But relays click? Go to the back and pull off the rubber connector boot from the AFM and move the flap off the stop with your fingers. The fuel pump may very well start running. But..what it may be telling you is that the switch in the AFM that tells the ECU that the flap is closed and the fuel punp therefore needsto be buzzed...is either dirty, needs adjustment, or is broken. Ray

Longbeach412 · Post by **Longbeach412** » Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:19 pm

WE HAVE A HIT!...Sir Greenwood, went thru the suggested procedure and got to the AFM, moved the flap and.........voila, we have fuel. Now I need to figure out what an AFM is, what it does? and in which of the 3 conditions you sugested mine is?

Longbeach412 · Post by **Longbeach412** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:02 am

And........after reading up a bit on what an AFM does, today I took the cover off the AFM and inspected the fuel pump safety switch. It seems that the contact arm, in the stop position, keeps the contact open and you need to move it in the open direction a tad to close the contact and activate the pump. When I do that, the pump keeps on running. Isn't the pump supposed to run for a few seconds then stop? I mean, afterall, this is the "safety" switch that keeps the pump off when the motor is not running, so it seems to be doing exactly that now. Now, who is supposed to power the pump in that pressurization phase? the AFM, or the double relay? it seems, the more I know, the more confused I get! Help set me straight people, please!

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:03 pm

See...L-jet is different than D-jet. In D-jet, there is a timing circuit in the ECU. It pressurizes the system for a couple of seconds. That way, when the engine starts turning, every full crank revolution, one pair of triggers or the other will fire ...and you have immdeiate presure to inject. The gist is that the very first breath of the engine ...or a single cylinder pull, should move the flap off of the stop turning the pump on. This circuit should only be live during starting operation..when the key is on and the flap off the stop...enabling the fuel pump to run. I do know that when you open the flap by hand with the key on...the pump will run constant....no timer. Congrats! It is probably either a gummy flap hinge, or a corroded or bent contact. Be delicate in the adjustment. Check the wire itself end to end with a voltmeter. Check also the individual connectors to make sure they are not corroded or messed up before attempting any adjustment.Ray

Longbeach412 · Post by **Longbeach412** » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:52 pm

Hmmm.......correct me if I am wrong here; so that means that a normal operating L-jet does not entail the initial pump pressurization aspect? and you are not supposed to hear the pump wirrr when you turn your ign on? and that the pump gets energized only when you engage the starter and the rotation of the motor creates enough air movenment to move the AFM enough to close the safety switch circuit?
If all of the above is correct, then my AFM is ok as it is and I should not be listening for a pump pressurizing as I turn the ign on, like I've been doing. May be? You see, the next thing is to replace all the leaky fuel lines and thats why I am not trying to start her all the way to find out. Thanks Ray for putting up with me so far, but am almost there!

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:29 am

Yes... I think thats true. Probably somehwere in this post ...we have even given you the instructions to listen for the buzz....dang...you can tell I have been working on D-jet and digifant too much. I need to check the books though. I can't for the life of me remember if the L-jet really has a pre-buzz or not. I kept thinking that there shoul have been an inital buzz and the no more ...UNTIL the flap moved. I know for sure digifant is like that It buzzes and then nothing until the flap moves. I will cjeck my books in the morning. Ray

Longbeach412 · Post by **Longbeach412** » Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:53 am

That sounds like I do not need to mess with the AFM untill you tell me otherwise. Great, now I can take on the fun task of replacing the leaky fuel hoses and may be, may be, if all else goes well I can fire her up this weekend

. Will be awaiting your verdict on the fuel pump logic. many thanks

Longbeach412 · Post by **Longbeach412** » Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:59 pm

Well, so much for "firing her up". Things have just taken two steps back and now I am back where I started from! Am soooooo peeeeeeed off! Anyways, take a deep breath, here is what happened: I pretty much concluded based on Ray's advice that I was chasing a ghost by looking for the fuel pump pressurize before engaging the starter. In an L-jet It won't untill the starter is engaged. So I went happily replacing old leaky fuel lines in the engine compartment and under the car. Then sat with anticipation and turned on the ign key and got......nothing!......again! the starter circuit has been interrupted again. It must be something I did or disturbed, but what? All I did was, remove the aircleaner box and unplug the AFM to replace the fuel line. And then I power washerd the under carriage and leaky tranny which I tightened and leaks no more. Could any of these 2 activities have disrupted a wire to the starter?

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:03 pm

Yes, the long gray wire to the starter...single connector may have blown off. If so...it will not start. Check all of your grounds. You can test the fuel pump by simply pulling the plug off of it and connection a positive an negative female connector wire to each one...they are marked plus and minu. Run them straight to the battery. The pump will them run and you can check the pressure. To make sure thr egulator is working...operate the fuel presure regulator with a hand vaccum pump. Ray

Longbeach412 · Post by **Longbeach412** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:57 am

Will do. thanks ray, am back in a fighing mood again after some down time and frustration. I also put the battery on the charger. With all the tests and trials, and the clock feeding off it, I think it got drained. Will install freshly charged battery and run the checks you listed and post the results.

Longbeach412 · Post by **Longbeach412** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 1:07 am

THE FIMAL EPISODE.........folks, she finally started and ran!!

thanks everyone, thanks a lot Ray. In summary for the benefit of any future readers of this thread, the culprit was a rusted and failed open seat belt relay. So if you have a 74, pay attention to its differences from the other years. It was sweet success hearing that motor roar for the first time, but now I got a lot more work on my hands. The brakes are practically non existant, so off with the wheels and a break job. It also wont start easy from sitting so long as the points got tac welded together and had to be reset. Also I have to pump the pedal to get her started, and ir backfires on start, unlike my D-Jet type 3. So it needs a tune up bad, and now begins the long process of making a reliable daily driver outa her. A sincere thanks to all who held my hand through this ordeal and helped me get this far.

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:11 am

Do some searches on brakes. You got some problems to vercome. The master cylinder will guaranteed be shot...they are very hard to find. If you have no rust pits in the cylinder walls...hone it lightly with a 360 grit "flex" hone...then polish with 600-800 grit. But either a rebuild kit for a type 3 cylinder of the same brand...ie: ATE or FAG. Use all of the seals and the new brass flap valves...discard the pistons..they do not mix. Use 800-1000 grit sandpaper to clean up the seats of the pistons where the flap valves go. Or...buy a type 3 cylinder and steal the seals. Even the brazilian ones will work decent. There are some dual circuit rabbit cylinders you can steal the seals from as well.
One of the things I am working on as well....is a bolt in...no welding, 4 bolt flange kit to install the bus master in the trunk where the power brake cylinder would have installed. It would include new connector lines so as not to destroy the original lines under the dash. Maybe february.
I have places on my list where you can buy new calipers...or check the NAPA stores for rebuilt kits for calipers. Same as the master cylinder...do not leave honing cross hatch markes in them. make suret here are no pits that intersect with the seal groove and they are rebuildable. Hone them...then polish with 1000 grit... do the piston too. A set of Teflon stainless brake lines are a fabulous addition. It uses the same part 3 both front and rear. I can drop the part # in laterThey are about the same price as new rubber ones. Do not discard the two piece german rear drums. they are much better than the cast brazilian ones...and are impossibleto find. use 180 grit to clean off the surface rust. Get new brazilian rear wheel cylinders they are fine...the brakes will be great. they take about 3 bleedings over 2 week because of all the twists and turns in the system. Use Castrol LMA fluid or ATE super blue ...nothing else is worth it. Be sure ...if you buy caliper kits or new calipers, that you realize that the 197e and 1974 cars used differnt calipers, pads, Rotors and steering knuckles than the early models. They are interchangable...but only in complete sets of all of the above. I would recommend getting new rotors. The old ones can be turned...but if they are worn and rusted...they get thin. Also....its very very worth the money to have your rotors ground instead of turned...like the high dollar Euro cars do. Its smoother, quieter, stops better and they last longer. Lok for highest meatl content pads available. Repco metalmaster or Beck-Arnely silver are good. Get new caliper hardware kits...i have a line on those...and go to pep boys and get Raybestos self adhesive caliper pad shims. They are listed for a late model 914...about $8. Ray

Longbeach412 · Post by **Longbeach412** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 6:25 pm

You aint kiddin!!!!!........sure enough, I took the right rear drum off and, we have a leaky cylinder. I go check on the brake fluid reservoir, and its dry. then I log on and read your post

. I'll need some time to digest what you said before I can comment, but I'll say that; I aint no brake meister, all I ever done is change shoes & pads, so I dunno yet which way to go

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Wed Nov 17, 2004 8:28 pm

You will do fine with brakes. there is no "magic" with brakes. Just remember that brakes cannot be "fudged", jury rigged...corners cut or nything. the factory has no ability to do it any better than you or I do...period..no kidding. But remember this....think like you are building an airplane. No second hand parts. No "almost perfect"...no just abouts. This does not mean that it will be expensive...just very high standard.

These are the things you can and canot do with brakes.
(1) if there are rust pits...of any size o matter how small in the master cylinder...and they cannot be honed out with .001-.002" of honing...the cylinder is shot...period...end of argument. A single rust pit will simultaneously by pass pressure and cut the lip of the seal. The cylinder will always have poor pressure and fail within weeks or months. If your cylinder isservicable...you can get away with about $50 for either a kit and emory paper...or a rabbit cylinder ($39) to scavenge for parts. A brand new cylinder...will average about $150
(2) Calipers...they can have rust pits up to .025" in diameter and about .010" deep. Thats big....but you can have "0" pits that intersect wih the groove where the rubber piston ring is. That is the sole source of pressure seal. Any intersecting rust its cause a leak. If the calipers are servicable..the kit will run about $40. Call it $50 with all of the emory cloth and cleaning fluids. New ones are about $60 ea.
(3) Do NOT rebuild rear wheel cylinders. they are way too cheap to buy.$40 for the pair
(4) all new calipers, wheel cylinders and master cylinders MUST be disassembled and cleaned in denatured alcohol before drying and re-assembling. They are assembled with lots of ambient dirt in the factories. The oil is the equivalent of coal oil. If the parts have een on the shelf for a while, they sometimes get light surface rust that must be smoothed an cleaned out. They sometimes grow green crud under the brass flap valves if they were assembled on a humid day.
(5) You will leave "0" cross hatch honing marks in either master cylinder or calipers. New master cylinders come without hone marks. Unlike metal piston rings that need to be broken in....rubber seals seal better and wear less...on smoother surfaces.
(6) On old cars like this....the rubber brake lines are ugly. They run about $12 each....about $16-18 for Teflon/stainless.
(7) Never get rid of German drums unless they are hideoulsy warped. Before allowing some hack to turn German drums....get some sticky back 180 grit sandpaper and attche to the brake shoes. Put the wheel back on and turn the wheel around by hand...gently tightening the adjuster screws..until its de-rusted.
(8) Always get new wheel bearings...most especially on the front end. Seals...$4 ea, inner $8 ea outer $12 ea. Rear wheels....very expensive and only made in August every year. Take your out, replace the seal, clean and repack with 550 F drop point grease (mystick JT-6 is awesome). get a new seal...$5 ea..4 seals...$20
(9)Clean the metal brake lines out front to back with cpmpressed air on top of 90% isopropyl alcohol.
(10) Get new hardware kits for the calipers. This includes anti-rotation plates, spring plate, safety locking tabs, brake pad pins...and the additional anti-rattle plates from Raybestos I mentioned. They also make hardware spring kits for the rear...use for a type 3...same kit. Under $30 for all of that.
(11) Buy new bleeder valves for all. $5
(12) turning rotors will cost about $15 for a good shop. They will run $90-150 a pair for new ones.
This will leave you with about $350 for a complete....as good as factory brake system in the lower cost...most castings reusable scenario.....and about $650 for having to buy new rotors, calipers and master cylinder. But....you will also have a car that stops on a dime.

Oh...almost forgot..remove the brake rsoivoir...clean with alcohol...and replace the blue brake fluid feeder lines...about $15. Ray