Attn Muffler Mike!

schmleff · Post by **schmleff** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:36 am

Greetings,

There has been much talk about your "windowed" valve cover video. Is that still available?

Thanks!

Muffler Mike · Post by **Muffler Mike** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:04 am

If you look at my web page's front page and go down to the bottom of the right side and look at the 1-18-2007 update, you will see the story about it. and at the bottom of that update is a link to the video i did, with some earlier stuff i did in 2000
hope thats what your looking for.

schmleff · Post by **schmleff** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:12 am

Thanks!

So the video is after you closed the inside part of the pushrod tubes?

Muffler Mike · Post by **Muffler Mike** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:42 am

the video is after i relieved the side of the case so the oil has a different place to go.

schmleff · Post by **schmleff** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:35 am

Did you try a set of the "windage" pushrod tubes?

Muffler Mike · Post by **Muffler Mike** » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:52 am

I sure didnt. 2 problems come with somethign like that. A) i already had some bling bling JayCee tubes and B) i dont know how the clearance would work getting those to clear pushrods. (but im sure it would have been fine.)

My theory behind this is even with the windage tubes, this just cuts down on the drain hole, but it may eventually still build up enough oil to get up to the holes and push up the tubes any ways, it MAY only be a delay on the fill.
Unfortunatly, I dont have a boat load of time on my hands to do some trial and error like that. (id love to) Half the time i am still thrashing the day before the first race to get ready.

After that test video, i tried to pinch off my relief lines, and after that, i couldnt keep the valve cover on. i think it starts to hydraulic, slightly move and started hitting the big springs and then oil was going every where. So this was not the all mightly scientific test i wanted it to be.
(i couldnt fit the standard bails so it was a spring and safety wire holding it in place)

Its only about the 3-4 side too. the 1-2 side remains empty except for the rocker splash coming up through the push rods.

Post by **Piledriver** » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:40 pm

Hmmmm.. I'm wondering if a hacked up CB drysump pump (rearranged internally) could be set up as a 26mm wet sump pump and have the 21mm outer stage suck on that rocker box... feeding back to the sump.
(drill a couple holes, coupla plugs...)

Wonder if the 21mm could keep up...

I'm thinking on an engine that runs at 4K all the time it might be a huge feature... Esp if you had oil sprayers for the springs etc.

(esp aircraft)

schmleff · Post by **schmleff** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 5:11 am

So...

If the one side fills with oil that can't drain, I wonder if the head temps are higher on that side.

I have the CB windage tubes now. Wonder if that is helping? I do run it steady state at 3500 for every day use. I suppose that about the rpm going down the highway.

I assume dry sumping would negate this issue entirely.

Post by **Piledriver** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:19 am

There is a pump setup referred to a a "stage and a half", wetsump with small pump sucking either on a low mounted turbo or the head... The "half" pump dumps back to the sump.

I posted some pics of my modified CB dry sump pump, could easily be used like that... over on the wasser forums IIRC.

The CB dry sump pump clears a power pulley on a T1 for sure, and a full size conversion pulley on a T4. Clears ~everything on a 914 stock cooling setup with some plumbing mods... The fan setup isn't the issue in that case.

I've been thinking that plugged pushrods and an oil feed to the heads w/spraybars would probably be the ideal setup for aircraft or GP HD useage, with a stage and a half pump sucking on that head.

(You can get pushrod ends w/o holes, or braze up the ones you have)

The stock rockers need some pressure, but a proper spraybar setup would provide valve spring etc cooling better... A gun drilled rocker shaft w/short oil passages, fed via a restrictor off the spraybar pressure line would probably be best.

The spraybar could be fed via a ~10 PSI relief valve as it's not really needed at idle, but this adds complexity.

Post by **Piledriver** » Sat Jun 16, 2007 10:07 am

Muffler Mike wrote:the video is after i relieved the side of the case so the oil has a different place to go.

So you opened up the bottom gap between the rocker bores and outside of the case for better return, or am I visualizing that wrong?

Muffler Mike · Post by **Muffler Mike** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:23 am

Piledriver wrote:
Muffler Mike wrote:the video is after i relieved the side of the case so the oil has a different place to go.
So you opened up the bottom gap between the rocker bores and outside of the case for better return, or am I visualizing that wrong?

Yea its sort of like that. first picture is my motor. and the second i did to a friends. just put an opening on the side of the case and run the hose to the sump.

I dont know if i would even bother with sealing up the push rod tubes, this has been done for all out drag motors that are not run for any real duration, but the amount that flows through is not all that much.
the 1-2 side drains just as fast as the push rods can deliver. its actually a pretty good splashing affect. if you could keep the 3-4 side down low enough, i think it would do almost as good as a spray bar.

As for scavenging the 3-4 side with a dry sump type pump, that's starting to become somewhat common in a drag motor with an autocraft stage and a half.
so if you can modify a cb pump to do the same, id think that would be an awesome thing to try.

from a cooling stand point of having 3-4 side filled, i dont think it would help that much since its not flowing and removing heat.

the spray bar set up i think would be more benefisial to the valve spring life more then any thing.

At least this is how my brain is working on this subject.
And weather my set up really works good, the jury is still out. I do know it does flow through the hoses. As the motor warms up, the hoses get hot just as fast as any thing else telling me there is temperature transfer and that can only come from flow.

Post by **Piledriver** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:35 am

Thanks for the info, Mike.

On the WBX, I'm going to see if I can run a drain from the 3/4 rocker box to the oil filler pipe above oil level, assuming there's all downhill run... the filler is on the 1/2 side... Probably work on a T4 too (all except 914 blocks are open there IIRC)

The CB pump could likely be modded in <20 minutes for most Bug installs. (914 takes longer due to requiring clearancing etc)

I don't have a T1 case to try it on, but I THINK an iron or steel flat cover could be thinned enough for a full sized pulley, esp if you used hex/flat head 8mm bolts...(with the machining for the heads on top in the cover

My thought is that draining the 3/4 rocker box is critical just to get flow going...

Many bugs, busses etc run ~4000 RPM cruising down the highway, and hanging a quart or more out in the 3/4 rocker box cooking the oil can't help anything much, esp the oil. I wonder how hot it gets... esp on a T4...(Stub pipes under rocker box/very close proximity)

I've pretty much decided to initially set the Pile up with the CB pump configured as a stage and a half, If I find room for the DS tank all I have to do is move a few hoses...

Muffler Mike · Post by **Muffler Mike** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:01 am

Piledriver wrote:Thanks for the info, Mike.

On the WBX, I'm going to see if I can run a drain from the 3/4 rocker box to the oil filler pipe above oil level, assuming there's all downhill run... the filler is on the 1/2 side... Probably work on a T4 too (all except 914 blocks are open there IIRC)

The CB pump could likely be modded in <20 minutes for most Bug installs. (914 takes longer due to requiring clearancing etc)

My thought is that draining the 3/4 rocker box is critical just to get flow going...

Many bugs, busses etc run ~4000 RPM cruising down the highway, and hanging a quart or more out in the 3/4 rocker box cooking the oil can't help anything much, esp the oil. I wonder how hot it gets...

I've pretty much decided to initially set the Pile up with the CB pump configured as a stage and a half, If I find room for the DS tank all I have to do is move a few hoses...

the fixed drain out of the 3-4 side has also been done quite a bit. Although, i believe that drain hose needs to be quite big so there is some head pressure to move the oil. something like -10 or bigger.
But any drain line should promote some flow.

I think what some of use need to try out something so we know more of what goes on is maybe take a simple breather line type set up from the bottom side of the head or valve cover and use clear hose and tie it in to a breater up high, and that way, one might be able to see the level of the oil under the valve cover.

Post by **Piledriver** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 10:58 am

Cool idea.

I have to set up a drain anyway, I'll braze some 1/2" or 3/4" SS tubing into a spare cover in the corner.
(trying to visualize how to get the cover on/off with a bail, but that's just an engineering problem, I was originally envisioning taking it off a modified pushrod tube, at least on the T4)

I even have some large Tygon and Vinyl tubing to see through, good for the test anyway.

Muffler Mike · Post by **Muffler Mike** » Tue Jun 19, 2007 11:17 am

Piledriver wrote:Cool idea.

I even have some large Tygon and Vinyl tubing to see through, good for the test anyway.

Exactly. I use to run that clear braided hose for breather line. picked it up from home depot. inexpensive and actually held up fairly well. ends up getting a little oil stained and turns yellowish.
looks like this.

But when i had this stuff, thats when i did that first test back in 2000 or what ever it was, and while in the drive way, i actually saw the oil migrating up the breather line telling me the cover was full.