411/412 pictures

[tuna]

Albert sent me a bunch of photos to share with you guys.

Here's what happens when you run a 411 into a cement wall (OUCH!!):



411 Notchback prototype:







Early 2-door fastback prototype (notice the headlights!):



411 Cabriolet



Shares styling to a 412, but don't know what it is:

[wshawn]

Cool

Have you noticed where the fuel filler flap is on the 2 door fastback version? At least I think it is the fuel filler flap next to the door

[raygreenwood]

Tuna/Albert...thanks.

Some notes. That bottom picture is a "Brazilia". I saw several in the Phillipines a couple years ago...one in my parking lot at work.

The crash test picture is illustrating the front "crash cell" feature of these cars that many do not know about. The car is designed with crumple zones front and rear.
Notice that the rest of the body remains fairly straight? The body is designed to crumple and absorb energy. Ray

[tuna]

Ray,

There was a Brazilia convertible? I didn't know that! I'm familiar with the Brasilia, with it's 412 styling and KG/181 floorpan, but I didn't realize that there was a convertible version.

Tuna

[raygreenwood]

I don't know if they were original or aftermarket...but I saw two of them. With the top up...they look kind of lumpy or ill fitted....but they look great with the top down. Ray

[albert]

hy ray ,,for the gren model ,, cabrio ,, i have read this information ,, it was expérimental,, karmen convertible for the first 411 ,in the karmen muséum ,, ,i d,t know if that was exact ,, but this picture come from a tourist who visit , the ,,karmen muséum ,,albert

[albert]

wshawn ,, the only information i have for this 2 doors model,, was the gaz tank was onder the rear seat over the trs, for thois reason you see the flap door on the side albert

[wshawn]

wshawn ,, the only information i have for this 2 doors model,, was the gaz tank was onder the rear seat over the trs, for thois reason you see the flap door on the side albert

Thanks albert,

I wonder how big the front luggage area is then without the fuel tank in there???

[albert]

shawn,, if in your life you got a chance to go to visit the vw and karmen muséum you can see this model ,,vw as 2or3 muséum in différent german city samething for karmen,, last spring,, vw want to scrap the 2 doors ,,green,, model and couple more expérimental 411 for to make a loose place inside ,but the européean 412 fans signe pétition for to stop this intention of vw,, but to this moment i d,t know if vw has change her mind ,albert

[wshawn]

I would love to visit these places albert, and one day I will. Just hope the internal combustion engine doesn't become an exhibit in the museums before I get chance

[Lahti411]

I've found some interesting photos of 411 prototypes also.


This is a spy picture taken in may 1968 when 411 was not yet released. Notice four head lights instead of two oval ones.


this is from the VW-museum. At first glance this proto looks like a regular 411 but when you look closely you'll notice the different edge on the hood. Also the head lights seem little different.


This is taken from a dealer sales material brochure. Notice the narrow tail light openigs and dash board which is a part of the monocoque. There's also no vents behind the rear side windows. This brochure was released in august 1968.

I think these pictures show that VW was still unsure which design and detailing they were going to use although the production start was close.

[412s2]

Great pictures Albert/Lahti411!! Thanks!!!

Have you seen the pictures of the 411 notchback and Karmann cabriolet on Jans Vagelpohl's website? http://www.type4.org/pictures/1966 They are really great!

Albert, can you give us anymore information about the 'crashtest' picture? Was this a VW test? What speed was the impact? As Ray said, the passenger cell has held up really well!!

Lahti411, where did you find these pictures?? They are really interesting! What is the silver car with the 4 headlamps? Is it an EA158 or an EA142? Do you know what year it was produced?

The silver 2 door fastback is an EA158 (also known as the Type 5 project), so strictly speaking, it is not a 411 prototype, but a prototype for a car, from what I understand, was to be sold as the VW 311 and replace the Type 3. EA142 was the Volkswagen development code for the 411; although it is clear that both EA142 and EA158 share more or less the same monocoque. Here is what VW say about EA158 on their Automuseum website (translated from the German using Google's Language Tools):

Volkswagen EA 311 Special (1966) 

Built: 1966 

Displacement: 1493 cc 

Performance: 58 hp at 4400 rpm. 

Maximum speed: 130 km / h 


The silver prototype with the chassis number VR 779 in the Volkswagen as "Special 311", what its significance as a potential successor to the 1961 presented Type 3 (1500, 1500S, 1600) stresses. The copy was presented in March 1966 in complex hand assembly. 



It has, in contrast to Type 3 is already a self body with the grand total length of 4.49 m - which he then 
Type 3 in length by almost 30 centimetres above. Nevertheless, he merely empty 950 kilograms in the balance - barely more than the series-Volkswagen of his 1600 vintage. Undoubtedly, this was a result of the concept of self-lightweight body. 



EA Special 311 is powered by a accommodated in the rear, built very flat four-cylinder boxer with a special flat blower speeds. This could - like the type 3 and later the Type 4 - two baggage compartments are placed: in a large bow and a smaller in the rear. 



This technically and conceptually very successful prototype could not prevent the rear-engine concept in Wolfsburg at the end of the 60s the end nahte - at least what new developments and new VW models are concerned. 



While still the Beetle ran and ran, "was the development contract EA 311 in October 1968 and declared over and done the work on here also shown EA 272, the ancestor of all today's water-cooled Volkswagen, intensified.

When I visited the VW Automuseum last year (which is superb, but could do with more development projects and descriptions on display) I had a close look at the EA158 prototype and took the following pictures.

Click on any of the pictures to see them in full size!!


The dashboard pattern looks very similar to the dashboard of the moncoque structure Lahti411 posted!


An early prototype Type 4 engine, according to the Automuseum's description, this one is 1493cc.


It looks like an early development of the 004 transmission, the rear trailing arms are a different design to those on the 411/412, no pick-up points for a rear anti-roll bar either.


The fuel tank is mounted in front of the rear suspension.


The front suspension arms look very different! Although the mounting points for the front sub-frame look the same as the 411/412. If i remember correctly it didn't have coils on the front, at the time I assumed the coils had been removed and that big rusty bolt welded in to give it some ground clearance. Now I actually wonder if maybe it is fitted with torsion bars in a similar setup to the Porsche 911?? I have heard rumours that the early prototypes used torsion bars...


Although both this car and the 411 notchback (an EA142) were supposedly built in 1966, there are many, many technical differences between the two. Underneath, the EA142 is practically identical to the 411 which went into production in August 1968. Development on the EA158 continued well into 1969. Etzold in his book 'The Chronicles of the People's Car - Vol 2' even says the 'tooling was prepared and the first run was built'. I don't know if by this time the technical spec matched that of the 411. Does anyone else know more about this project??

Here are some more pictures of EA158s from Etzold's book, they show another 2 door fastback and a cabriolet, I have no idea when they were taken. The cabriolet doesn't look much like the 411 cabriolet that Karmann produced! I wonder how close these designs are to the Pininfarina originals.



Ton (type4ever) sent me the following pictures, they are believed to have been taken sometime in the spring of 1969. There are lots of strange details in them, a 411 Variant with '68 style lights? The '70 style dashboard with the space for the auxiliary switch but with the '68 style gauges?

[ubercrap]

Tuna/Albert...thanks.

Some notes. That bottom picture is a "Brazilia". I saw several in the Phillipines a couple years ago...one in my parking lot at work.

The crash test picture is illustrating the front "crash cell" feature of these cars that many do not know about. The car is designed with crumple zones front and rear.
Notice that the rest of the body remains fairly straight? The body is designed to crumple and absorb energy. Ray

Interesting, I never knew the Brasilia production continued on with an updated '80's-looking front end, let alone a convertible?

Anyway, that crash picture is awesome, look at all that room for the crumple zone and no pesky engine block to crush your legs!

[albert]

oh,,412x2 that make couple of years i have that in my ,,cpu,, for what i have in my mémory ,, during the years 60 ,,vw ,, paid a private crash test cie,,,samething what you have in the usa,,fédéral car crash test ,, and for the 411 crash test it was to 50klm( europe test ) on the ciment wall and i have one crash test for the beetle in the year 60-62 for to test the air bag in the vw stearing ,,and mr bosh said that is not the best protection ,,albert

[SureFit Travis]

Some really great photos here, guys.

I also noticed that the script on the glove-box door shows the shift pattern for the automatic transmission.


Perhaps another prototype car?

Travis