adding skin to a tube frame
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Leatherneck
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adding skin to a tube frame
I am going to be adding some skin to my rail (tube frame). Is it best to round over and overlap it and weld or just weld it to the face of the tubing? Also I am going to have to figure out how to do some off contour bends, may end up applying some heat and ......
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dstar5000
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Re: adding skin to a tube frame
Adding alu to a steel frame?
Pop-rivets work best!
Don
Pop-rivets work best!
Don
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of this presidency,".. Barack Obama January 21, 2009, 30 minutes before he signed the law
sealing all his personal information....
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DWP
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Re: adding skin to a tube frame
Depending on the skin consider dzus type fasteners.
Look around here for some ideas. http://www.locostusa.com/forums/
I am considering fabricating some panels for my rail this winter. One idea of where the tubing bends around the rear is to get some pre bent exhaust pipe and slice it, weld. Bending over a straight pipe is easy. Trying to bend over a curve pipe is a different story.
DWP
Look around here for some ideas. http://www.locostusa.com/forums/
I am considering fabricating some panels for my rail this winter. One idea of where the tubing bends around the rear is to get some pre bent exhaust pipe and slice it, weld. Bending over a straight pipe is easy. Trying to bend over a curve pipe is a different story.
DWP
As i tell my son, waste money on cars not Girls.
You can always sell the Car.
You can always sell the Car.
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: adding skin to a tube frame
Leather, is this going to be permanent skinning or removable? By your talk of "wrapping it around the tube it sounds more like permanent mounting. If you do, make some trial welds on scrap stock and tube to get the heat right. Like any other body weld, you will want to do it in small sections then move on to another area to keep the heat down and prevent burn/blow though or warping. Make sure that both surfaces are clean and shiny. Also, make sure the tube is clean half way around to eliminate the possibility of contamination of the weld.
Pop rivets are a way but if it is not to be a permanent mount they are a pain in the no-speak-about to remove; drill though to get the post out or at least drill the head to a countersink then drift the rivet though… or both. You don’t want to damage or enlarge the rivet hole and drifting them though puts a rattle in your rail.
Dzus fasteners have been around since well before WWII and work pretty good and the head designs range from flush head to button head to wings nut styles if you want. There are tools available for them even pre-bent tabs with all the holes drilled. You might have to buy a dimpling tool if you plan on flush fasteners. Since I live in a wet climate I look at the problem with rust if your toy is stored outside, after all, the fastener hooks to a thin wire on the tab. A lot of speed shops and EAA airplane shops carry both the tools and the fasteners.
(Just for giggles and so you have a lot of information to ponder) Quarter turn fasteners (the head instead of having a tube with a guide in it has a head that looks like the mantle of a squid which hooks into a bent receptacle which is part of the locking device. Much stronger than the old Dzus fasteners) can be obtained with either an open or a sealed receptacle (now you are starting to talk money but they are so much better. Dzus I think also makes this style as do many other fastener companies). The receptacles, like the Dzus quarter turn style rivet on to a tab.
An aluminum skin can be welded (there is a procedures for this) to steel but I don't recommend it. Riveting it to steel (use tabs, don't drill the tube) as you weaken the tube; also when you remove the pop (blind) rivets you end up with rattles in the tube (blind rivers aka pop rivets’ are basically hollow rivets not solid rivets which, when you hammer the head (peeving) you expand the rivet to fill the hole’, pop rivets you expand the hollow tube by pulling a nail up but except for the small area where the nail head is, it is still a hollow tube and not as strong especially in sheer. You will also have to use SS rivets (AL to steel application) as the dissimilar metal issue comes up and I would also put a liner between the AL and the steel of some sort (also is a good anti-rattle thing).
As far as bending over flat stock, DWP has a good idea. You can use a body hammer to do it (a slap hammer is better as it covers a larger area at a time but it is heavy and awkward after a while. Not balanced the way a good hammer is [should be]) and if you work the metal all along the whole length of the straight part of the tube as you bend it rather than finishing one section then moving on to another section you can do it in several passes. Be sure to clamp the metal in place firmly as it will want to slide on you. As I have said, love the metal into place, not force it. Again, practice what you plan on doing before you go at it on the real thing; saves a lot of heartache and money.
As far as bends in the tube goes, DWP’s idea probably will work but if you can clamp the metal in place and slowly work it (remember you are both stretching then shrinking the metal into the form you want it depends on many things. It may end up that you have to form some pieces separately (remember, I haven’t seen your radius and just what you have in mind) then weld them in place. If you do, make some practice welds (I forget the term) and weld in small places spreading the heat out then you can finish the weld. You might even look into a flanging tool for an over lap joint (I’m not home now so I can’t take any pictures of the tool and how it works) rather than a butt weld joint.
DWP’s idea might be good but with some mods; heavy gauge metal if you can get it or fill the bend with dry sand, pack it hard, and weld the other end shut) so it will take the bumping and not deform as easily from your “love taps”. You might even want to add some kind of mount so you can clamp it in place so it doesn’t move on you which just out of orneriness it will.
Anyway, some thoughts from me.
Lee
Pop rivets are a way but if it is not to be a permanent mount they are a pain in the no-speak-about to remove; drill though to get the post out or at least drill the head to a countersink then drift the rivet though… or both. You don’t want to damage or enlarge the rivet hole and drifting them though puts a rattle in your rail.
Dzus fasteners have been around since well before WWII and work pretty good and the head designs range from flush head to button head to wings nut styles if you want. There are tools available for them even pre-bent tabs with all the holes drilled. You might have to buy a dimpling tool if you plan on flush fasteners. Since I live in a wet climate I look at the problem with rust if your toy is stored outside, after all, the fastener hooks to a thin wire on the tab. A lot of speed shops and EAA airplane shops carry both the tools and the fasteners.
(Just for giggles and so you have a lot of information to ponder) Quarter turn fasteners (the head instead of having a tube with a guide in it has a head that looks like the mantle of a squid which hooks into a bent receptacle which is part of the locking device. Much stronger than the old Dzus fasteners) can be obtained with either an open or a sealed receptacle (now you are starting to talk money but they are so much better. Dzus I think also makes this style as do many other fastener companies). The receptacles, like the Dzus quarter turn style rivet on to a tab.
An aluminum skin can be welded (there is a procedures for this) to steel but I don't recommend it. Riveting it to steel (use tabs, don't drill the tube) as you weaken the tube; also when you remove the pop (blind) rivets you end up with rattles in the tube (blind rivers aka pop rivets’ are basically hollow rivets not solid rivets which, when you hammer the head (peeving) you expand the rivet to fill the hole’, pop rivets you expand the hollow tube by pulling a nail up but except for the small area where the nail head is, it is still a hollow tube and not as strong especially in sheer. You will also have to use SS rivets (AL to steel application) as the dissimilar metal issue comes up and I would also put a liner between the AL and the steel of some sort (also is a good anti-rattle thing).
As far as bending over flat stock, DWP has a good idea. You can use a body hammer to do it (a slap hammer is better as it covers a larger area at a time but it is heavy and awkward after a while. Not balanced the way a good hammer is [should be]) and if you work the metal all along the whole length of the straight part of the tube as you bend it rather than finishing one section then moving on to another section you can do it in several passes. Be sure to clamp the metal in place firmly as it will want to slide on you. As I have said, love the metal into place, not force it. Again, practice what you plan on doing before you go at it on the real thing; saves a lot of heartache and money.
As far as bends in the tube goes, DWP’s idea probably will work but if you can clamp the metal in place and slowly work it (remember you are both stretching then shrinking the metal into the form you want it depends on many things. It may end up that you have to form some pieces separately (remember, I haven’t seen your radius and just what you have in mind) then weld them in place. If you do, make some practice welds (I forget the term) and weld in small places spreading the heat out then you can finish the weld. You might even look into a flanging tool for an over lap joint (I’m not home now so I can’t take any pictures of the tool and how it works) rather than a butt weld joint.
DWP’s idea might be good but with some mods; heavy gauge metal if you can get it or fill the bend with dry sand, pack it hard, and weld the other end shut) so it will take the bumping and not deform as easily from your “love taps”. You might even want to add some kind of mount so you can clamp it in place so it doesn’t move on you which just out of orneriness it will.
Anyway, some thoughts from me.
Lee
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Leatherneck
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Re: adding skin to a tube frame
It will be a permanent addition as I don't want any loose panels or added rattles. Also sides will be steel not aluminum, the hood which will be removable and will be aluminum. The bending of metal towards the rear torsion will be interesting, who knows may do that in more then one piece. Thanks for the ideas and thoughts guys. For those who don't know this is what I am working on.
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: adding skin to a tube frame
Leather, how high up are you planning on skinning it, the second rail up or more; e.g., the center of the top? What about the rear of the toy, all the way around or to the torsion tube?Leatherneck wrote:It will be a permanent addition as I don't want any loose panels or added rattles. Also sides will be steel not aluminum, the hood which will be removable and will be aluminum. The bending of metal towards the rear torsion will be interesting, who knows may do that in more then (sic) one piece. Thanks for the ideas and thoughts guys. For those who don't know this is what I am working on.
Are you going to hinge the hood; a lifting off style can be a rattle bit in itself (is that the front hood/bonnet or the rear hood that is to be lift off). Either lift off or hinged, you are going to have to build a frame for it with curves at both ends and maybe in the middle to support it from shaking and flattening out. I think you are going to end up using a lot of masking tape to come up with a shape.
Lee
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Ol'fogasaurus
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Re: adding skin to a tube frame
Leather, are you making another try to get it licensed in CA? 