Want to build a Road Race / Auto Cross Help needed

[rwoodshvac]

I am wanting to put together a Road Race Beetle. I have some friends that are involved in racing and track days at VIR raceway in Danville VA.

I am starting from scratch. What would be the best model/year beetle to start with?

What modifications would be best. Suspension wise what tires and wheels Etc, Any info advice would be much apreciated!!!!

Any transmission advice ETC ?

Motor HP ?

Thanks a lot

[FJCamper]

Hi Rwoodshvac,

You are asking a big question.

Short answer is a standard ball-joint IRS Bug is cheapest. A Super Bug is more expensive to set up right, but has a handling edge.

We run a Super in ChumpCar and LeMons. Do you want to crew with us at Sebring (27-28 Sep) and see all this for yourself up close?

FJC

[Dale M.]

Have to agree on 69 or later BJ/IRS chassis (I'm not keen on Mc Pherson strut super)... 69 and later are best handling chassis right off show room floor and you take it where ever you want to go from there...

Lots of things are involved.... A lot will depend basically on class you want to run in... IF Auto-X there is "stock" meaning right off show room floor, street prepared, meaning some mods but still street legal, and modified, meaning lots of mods and work and money and car will probably be trailered to and from events.... If you are going for "track car", I would guess classes are similar to auto-x but car setup is a bit different for handling....

About transaxle, first considerations I would recommend is watch R/P ratio... Lower for auto-x and higher for track... Also close ratio 2nd-3rd gear swap can (will) be a plus....

So many things to consider... Keep reading and asking questions....

Dale

[JWP]

VIR is what I would call my home track, however I no longer live in the area. Its a great place with great challenges.
Can you share what sanctioning body you plan to run with.

In NASA at the time I started my build they were going to let me build to GTS5 specs or what ever the class names are these days.
The ST classes were not friendly to a beetle and the mods you'd want to make, however they used to offer a power/weight ratio classification as well.

I agree with the others on your car choice, for your trans choice I would also consider what tires you would run and your engine choice.
In my car as it is configured today my top speed would be 112 at 6000 rpm.

By comparison my 88 CRX Si that was stock less koni coilovers would reach 125 on the back stretch and 120 on the front at VIR but that car would rev to 7k
Both cars run the same size tire, the CRX had 108 hp new, my Beetle is right at 100 both at the crank.

The aero on the CRX is superior but the car weighs a bit more than a Beetle, there are tons of other factors but I'm hoping/expecting I can get my ball joint swing axle Beetle close to par of the CRX in mostly stock form.

Good luck with your project, you chose a great forum to ask questions and discuss your build. Can't wait to see how it turns out.

[Fiatdude]

I agree with the others on your car choice, for your trans choice I would also consider what tires you would run and your engine choice.

There is you main very important point to consider -- With one transmisson, and 14" rims/tires you can have a killer on a auto-x track, then switch to 16" or 17" rims/tires you will be able to run the long tracks

[rwoodshvac]

So is the way to go a BJ or standard ? I had a nice SB lined up with wide fenders but will hold up to get a BJ front.
Thanks

[helowrench]

Balljoint front suspension is a standard beetle

[Marc]

Supers all have balljoints too, but their MacPherson strut setup is totally different from any Standard Beetle's. Since you'll be wanting to stay with `69-up to have the 4-joint "IRS" rear suspension, any Standard you look at will have the "BJ" version of the transverse-torsionbar layout, the last cars to get the earlier king-and-linkpin ("KP") version were in 1965.
Do not rule out an AutoStick car if the price is right; they too had IRS rear suspension starting with the 1968 model and aren't too big a deal to convert to a manual transmission if you have a donor car for the pedals, shiftrod, etc....but the early AutoStick pans were built on a separate production line and had no clutch-cable conduit....really early ones had a different rear brakeline arrangement too. A fairly trivial job to add the clutch tube (compared to prepping a whole race car) but again the price should be lower because of the low demand.

[yodogg]

If you've already found a solid SB, go for it! We've never had an issue with our '73 Super's front end. My experience with Ball Joint fronts on-track isn't as extensive as with our Super (7 enduros and several track days vs 1 enduro and 1 track day plus a recent weekend driver project), but I would say what stands out to me isn't anything terribly technical, but more the feel.

The SB front turns and handles hard corners not unlike many "modern" cars, the steering feel is very direct in terms of driver input and the line your car follows, with a tendency toward understeer at higher speeds.

The Ball-Joint beetle has a subtle, but definite, tendency to "slide" or drift in high speed curves, which can be every bit as fast as and safe as a strut-front end, provided you understand what the car is doing and you have the right balance between front suspension, rear suspension and tire grip/pressure.

Keep in mind, that I'm describing how the steering feels under Road Racing conditions, not street driving. And of course, how the rest of your suspension is set up- tires, brakes etc- has a great deal to do with steering characteristics as well.

I don't believe I'm qualified to tell anyone that one setup is "better" than the other, for my money they both can work well and be a lot of fun. They both have pros and cons in terms of durability, tunability and ease/cost of upgrading.

So if you've already found a clean, healthy SB at a good price go for it! There's no guarantee that you'll find an equally good BJ/IRS beetle at the same price after all.

[Marc]

Do they remain reasonably gentlemanly at VIR or is there a lot of chariot-racing? Supers' steering boxes are much less robust when it comes to wheel-to-wheel contact; the newer (`75-up) have rack & pinion boxes similar to Audis and they won't take much of a shot without bending either - but they at least usually remain controllable rather than disintegrating internally like the `71-`74 often do.
Supers have some camber gain (the camber goes more negative as the suspension compresses, so the tire contact patches stay more parallel to the pavement when the body rolls). Standards have ZERO camber gain other than what's generated by the caster when the wheels are steered, so they need much more initial negative camber if the outside tire's going to stay flat against the track under body roll. One effect of the Standard front end design is that the front roll center ends up at pavement level, generally a good thing...once you get the alignment, springrate and swaybar package dialed in, a Standard is superior to a Super IMO. Now, if the rules don't prevent you from replacing that ridiculous gangly-ass lower control arm with one of proper A-arm style, the Super's got more potential. Merely adding a Heim-jointed link between the front corner of the pan and the vicinity of the balljoint makes a huge improvement...if it's legal.

[Fiatdude]

If you have found a car that has all the stuff done to it -- I say get it (at the right price) -- it is always cheaper that away --

I picked up my Ghia a year ago after it had sat for 7-8 years -- paid a little to much for it after I found some brake and drive train issues that weren't disclosed and some parts that were promised and not deliveried -- but still a good starting point.

If your looking at a car, take someone with you that knows what to look for, sometimes it is good to pay an expert to evaluate the car up front, and that will probably be cheaper in the long run -- and here is the main point -- be willing to walk away if it isn't exactly what you want

[JWP]

Like others have said if you got a good line on an SB, get it. Make sure the spring perches and such are not rotted out and don't look mangled from an accident.

I agree with others as well in that we can't tell you what is best, each driver has a unique style. In one aspect a SB (super beetle) is more or less a 944 with a different body. Ok so not quite but from a suspension stand point they aren't a whole lot different and there are a lot of 944 tricks/ parts that are bolt on for an IRS. In fact I think HotVW's is supposed to have that stuff in the Nov issue.

I have a ball joint front, swing axle rear. I suppose the only way it gets "worse" is king pin front end, however there is a member on here from Africa that races a kp front end with swing axle rear and does quite well.

I've made a front beam that has 4 adjusters which splits the torsion leaves from left to right to allow for corner weighting. I also narrowed the beam a bit, in such a way I have built in negative camber. I'll be able to dial in as much as -5 to -6* camber. Castor shims are stacked and welded 2 deep. I'm not opposed to cutting the pan head and angling it back but thats something that will probably wait until I pull the body off the pan some day.

On the rear I have replaced the factory Z bar links and replaced them with American car/truck style sway bar end links this makes the Z bar active all the time and allows me to set a small degree of preload. I've also modified my camber compensator to be active all of the time with end links back to the axle and can set preload there as well. Should I need more rate i can add another leaf to what is already there.

As for the VIR drivers, it really is more related to the sanctioning body thats hosting the event. At PCA events it's forbidden, more or less you start bouncing off other cars you are done. NASA doesn't condone it but you get on probation pretty quickly. BMW and Ferrari and TarHeelSCCA clubs are about the same as PCA. I cannot speak to any others.

[sprbxr]

I'd like to see more of this front beam you built. Sounds interesting.

[JWP]

Here is a link to my build thread on theSamba. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=552384

I want to do another one using DOM tubing and fabricated parts. I think it would be easier to keep things square. It was a bear to do this one and keep it all square.
Using DOM I can change the construction process which will help keep all things square and even. However i would probably switch to using urethane bushings which I have mixed feelings about.

[ProctorSilex]

rwoodshvac, I am working on a road racing Ghia in Elkton, MD. If you are near enough, I would be glad to have some help if you would rather collaborate than get your own car.