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what's your opinion of the empi sway bars? I have a 74 ghia with drop spindles and kyb gr2 shocks all around. I have the stock front sway bar. would the 3/4" bars on the front and rear make a big difference? I'm not looking to spend a ton of money but would do the empi's if they work well.

Hi juki48,

Dual 19mm bars on your '74 will make your car feel very quick and responsive for street use. The front bar keeps the body roll down and keeps both front tires planted. The rear bar decreases the understeer and is the big contributor to the quick-response feel. The rear bar really enhances "turn-in" as in where you are steering into a turn and the car responds almost instantly.

But, for very high speed use, where you want understeer, a front bar alone is just right. High speed here means 100 mph sweepers where you want no sudden moves off course.

FJC

Thanks, I'm surprised both bars are 19mm. I would have expected the fronts to be 19 and the rears to be less, maybe 15-17mm. most of my driving is around 60 and never over 100 so I think I'll get both bars. I may get a chance to get on Watkins Glen this summer but still probably will be under 100. would adding caster shims help at high speeds if running both bars?

Hi juki48,

Yes, all of the bars I've found over the past ten years or more have been 19mm or larger, if you count Whiteline.

Either an edjustable rear bar or a 15 to 17mm rear bar would be excellent.

FJC

Do I need the standard front bar or lowered? i have a stock beam with drop spindles. also, I read John @ aricooled mounts the bar on top of the trailing arms. can I do this on the ghia? my wheels rub the clamps on the stock bar so mounting on top should eliminate that.

Hi Juki48,

Yes, you can clamp your front swaybar to the top trailing arms. I've never done it, but I have seen pictures and don't know about hidden gotchas.

If you do run the bar on the lower arms, get a "lowered" bar. Much neater fit.

FJC

would fitting both increase fast/snap oversteer in say wet condition though?

Hi Andy,

Your tires are really the adhesion limiters in the rain, but things being equal, front and rear bars will have you going faster when you do break loose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1d3Swrn-YI

Above is a video (Roebling Road) where were started with a 22mm adjustable White Line rear bar, and finally built up to 90-100 mph exit speed coming onto the main straight, and had to drop the bar altogether.

That's what I meant by "fast sweepers."

FJC

The upper arms lack the bumps which help to keep the clamps from sliding out of place. Space is tight with a full body, too...so it's not a particularly elegant approach, but it can be made to work.
The point of the "lowered" bar is that it's shaped differently so as to not hang as low when the control arms are angled as they are when using torsion bar adjuster to lower the front end. With drop spindles the control arms remain at the stock angle, so it's not an issue to run the "standard" shaped bar.
Many rear bars mount to the frame horns using squared-off U-bolts which you poke up and dangle down through two holes drilled in the bottom of the horn...I've seen these holes become stress risers causing frame horns to crack, so I prefer to use mounts which clamp around the horns instead. But IMO a ¾" rear bar is a bit much for a street car anyway.
Have you looked at the rear swaybar setup used on the 924/944 Porsches? Theirs are routed forward and avoid the frame horn mounts altogether. You fabricate some brackets which attach by U-bolts to the rear torsion housing, looking similar to these:

I can measure the early 944 bar diameter. Is is quite small.

FJCamper wrote:Hi Andy,

Your tires are really the adhesion limiters in the rain, but things being equal, front and rear bars will have you going faster when you do break loose.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1d3Swrn-YI

Above is a video (Roebling Road) where were started with a 22mm adjustable White Line rear bar, and finally built up to 90-100 mph exit speed coming onto the main straight, and had to drop the bar altogether.

That's what I meant by "fast sweepers."

FJC

are you completely sane?? great handling ghia you have there!

for some reason i hadn't factored tyres, good point!

Hi Marc, Andy;

We once experimented with mounts like Marc describes, installed exactly as the illustration above shows.

Wow, was the front end stiff! Maybe we could have experiemented more with it, but we were lifting front wheels even in moderate corners.

FJC

Steve Arndt wrote:I can measure the early 944 bar diameter. Is is quite small.

Most early 924/944 bars were 14mm.

FJCamper wrote:...Wow, was the front end stiff! Maybe we could have experiemented more with it, but we were lifting front wheels even in moderate corners.
FJC

That's not surprising, if it was wise to run the inboard mounts on a stock Type I front bar the factory probably would've done it and used a smaller-diameter bar. With the cheap primitive, inflexible mounts used at the control arms, added inboard mounts would tend to make the bar bind up and act more as an overload spring than as an anti-sway bar. I have a Whiteline bar on the front of my driver (and no rear) - it's mounted to the beam, and works quite nicely - the car doesn't push at all, and that's with rear tires that are wider than the fronts...no doubt because they incorporate "proper" adjustable connection links rather than being crudely clamped to the control arms like the stock-style front bar. But it's my understanding that these bars are no longer available, which is why I had avoided bringing them up. But if you can find one, I highly recommend that you give it a try.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/ ... G_1842.jpg
...because it's linked to the lower shock absorber mount, halfway down the control arm, the bar has less effect than one of the same diameter clamped/linked to the outboard end of the arm. You can see in the photo that mine is also connected to the end hole, which is the weakest setting - if I ever add a rear bar, I'll undoubtedly need to stiffen the front setting to control oversteer.

The brackets I was referring to above were for the REAR, to mount a Porsche 944 bar on a Beetle/`Ghia (they're also needed when adding a rear bar to a Porsche that wasn't factory-equipped with one, so you can buy them if you have more money than fabrication abilities)...as has been noted, that bar is smaller than the ubiquitous aftermarket ¾" (19mm) bars, but IMO that's a good thing - a big rear bar is hardly ever welcome on the street, their raison d'être is to increase oversteer for gymkhana-type work.

...and sometimes the fastest setup for a rear-engine car does result in three-wheel cornering. Years ago my driver got in a minor altercation on the circle track which resulted in a broken left-upper ball joint - he drove the last 15 laps of the feature (at competitive speed) with the LF flopping about in the wheelwell, which should give some idea of how little work the inside front needs to do

More front than rear roll stiffness is a typical setup for rear-engine cars, since putting too much into the rear will result in terminal oversteer - this is "normal" for the track, although I wouldn't want the front that stiff on a wet street:

I ended up getting the 3/4 front and rear bars. I'm going to try installing the front bars on top of the trailing arms for extra wheel clearance. for the rear, I'm going to see if I can fabricate a different linkage that will allow for the rear bar to be adjusted. its snowing today so it will be a while before I get under the car to mess with it.