73 super beetle needs new suspension

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barefootskater1200
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73 super beetle needs new suspension

Post by barefootskater1200 »

i dont have much experience with suspension on these cars, but i had a small investment pay off and ive decided that before i put more power in this car i need to make it somewhat safe to drive on public roads. and possibly handle better if i can.

as far as i can tell it has all original suspension components (including shock absorbers) with the only modification being front disk brakes. it rolls like crazy and rattles and manhole covers give the steering wheel quite a kick.

is the suspension stuff on cb any good?
i'm looking to drop the car a little so i was thinking of their 2-4 inch lowered front struts and just turning the rear torsion bars one notch and replacing those shocks as well.

would i benefit from a heavy duty sway bar?
cb doesn't seem to have one but i'm sure i could find one if its worth the effort.

would i benefit from installing a strut tower brace?

i do occasionally drag race this thing but no track racing. just wanting it a little lower for looks and maybe to stiffen it up a touch. it needs new shocks in a bad way but i could probably afford new front springs as well if there are any improvements to be had. thanks in advance.
Last edited by barefootskater1200 on Tue Apr 28, 2015 9:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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barefootskater1200
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Re: 73 turbo super beetle needs new suspension

Post by barefootskater1200 »

a bit more research. im thinking cb shocks and struts. new front springs from aircooled.net. also i do not have a steering damper. dont know if there ever was one but ill be putting one in to give the car a more solid feel.

probably try to make my own strut tower brace.

has anybody had any experience with any of the above mentioned parts? ive never modded suspension before and if i would be better to save for better parts i can do that. im more concerned with quality than speedy fixes. and i drive pretty nicely on very crappy roads. again, looking for better ride quality more so than performance or looks. though if i can have all three for a reasonable price i'd be happy.
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jhoefer
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Re: 73 turbo super beetle needs new suspension

Post by jhoefer »

Putting the steering damper back in is definitely going to help with the steering.

If you looked there yet, http://toplineparts.com has everything for superbeetle suspension.
barefootskater1200
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Re: 73 super beetle needs new suspension

Post by barefootskater1200 »

Thanks. That site is rad. Hadn't seen it before.

So I've been doing math and the budget allows for shocks and struts, steering damper, strut mounts, and EITHER new front springs OR stiffer away bar.

How would my money be best spent?
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Jadewombat
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Re: 73 super beetle needs new suspension

Post by Jadewombat »

I wouldn't drop 2-4 inches in the front. That's a bit too low on these cars. The lower front arms will be flat (parallel to the ground) and then handle like poop and make the car quite a handful when you hit a bump on the street. 1-2 inches is usually a sufficient drop.

The sky is the limit as far as suspension on supers (coil-overs, 944 components). You can easily spend several thousand $$$$. If you're only doing drag racing, no cornering- or slalom-type racing, I wouldn't put your money in sway bars or a strut tower brace. How much are you looking to spend? The only time you add/change sway bars is to get the front wheel back on the ground. Old bugs and Porsche 911s suffer from the inner wheel lifting after hard cornering (and the rear-end needs the stiffer sway bar vs. the front to put that wheel back on the ground). Sway bars will NOT help you in a straight line or ride quality.

New urethane bushings all around, decent shock and strut inserts, and slightly lower-stiffer springs in the front would make a world of difference.

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barefootskater1200
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Re: 73 super beetle needs new suspension

Post by barefootskater1200 »

I'm looking to spend 5-6 hundred, not doing anything crazy. And it is a super. No real hard cornering and only drag a few times a year.
Would shorter adjustable struts from cb and the shorter springs from aircooled.net be too much of a drop? I figure it would be 3-4 inches drop minimum. Lower if I want. And I'm really torn on lowering the rear. Mostly just want to make it ride better. Dropping would be a cool benefit though.
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Jadewombat
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Re: 73 super beetle needs new suspension

Post by Jadewombat »

If just slamming your car to the ground would make it handle better, then just go out and buy a few sacks of concrete mix and load up your car with those to get a few inches drop front and rear. I'm sure those sacks cost a lot less than $100.

Lowering a super beetle makes it handle better, up to a point. Going too low will make the ride quality (and safety) go out the window. How many "stanced" cars do you see around town slowing down for potholes, I see (and pass) a lot of them here in Houston.

Image

Keep plugging away though, and keep reading only ads. in magazines and websites. Their marketing material is the end-all of information and always has been. Definitely, don't do any searches on forums like this in the sticky at the top of the page or related questions like yours or other websites like germanlook.net. After 43 years of the super beetle being introduced to the world the jury STILL is out on what is the best handling combination. Racers, tuners, yep--no one can figure out that great mystery of how to make a super beetle handle better. And definitely don't do small changes at once to your car, change everything over all at once and hope for the best.

After all, we're here to do your homework for you.

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=107390
barefootskater1200
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Re: 73 super beetle needs new suspension

Post by barefootskater1200 »

It's not homework I'm after. Just asking advice.

I'll probably just buy new strut inserts and rear shocks, steering damper, and front springs. Also bushings and strut mounts. Shouldn't be too pricy. The ball joints and tie rods all seem fine.

Should be able to order the parts next week provided I don't blow it up racing this weekend. I'll report the improvements.
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raygreenwood
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Re: 73 super beetle needs new suspension

Post by raygreenwood »

The super beetle front strut system is largely the same as the design of the 411/412. They are all rather early versions of mass produced mcpherson strut systems.

The super beetle has pretty much "most" of the same flaws as the 411 and 412 as well. Let me list them and and a few of what things you might want to look at.
1. Nose high because it was designed to ride level with a full trunk. This is a ride height and spring height calculation issue.
2. Rebound valving circuits are weak
3. Early bonded strut bushings are weak
4. Bonded rubber idler bushing a poor design
5. Early centerlink bushing material suspect
6. About 1.5° to 2° short on castor.

As noted.....no one group, company or person has made mits or upgrades that are "perfect" for the superbeetle. Part of this issue is the dynamic of the changes And the changes that the changes force you to make.
1. When you lower a strut by shirtening the strut rod and further compressing the spring.....you can only go so far before the extra preload defeats the rebound valving causing poor ride control and fast damper wear. The super like the 411/412 was a little weak on the rebound circui5 in the first place.
2. Cutting the spring down to accommodate this method on the super....just like the 411/412 is a worthless way to go. These springs are progressive with a fairly distinct ride control ans load area.....and some, early ones this was visible in coil spacing. Most later ones employed variation to wire cross section in an otherwise uniform windong rate.
cutting the spring weakens one circuit or the other.....and effectively then nakes the valving in one direction or both.....incorrect.

3. Once you begin adding either spring compression by employing a strut cartridge with shorter rod....or cutting the spring to use with a shorter rod.....if you go too far.....wherein the spring requires much more force 5o compress than it did......at some predetermined point.....the weakest link in the system will flex before the spring does. In the case of early superbeetles that will be the bonded bushing in the strut bearing...which already has issues by 50k miles with stock valving issues. In the later two part bushing bearing assembly. ....overly hard springs will start compressing and hammering the springs behind the ball in the ball joint.

Working on the same issues in 411 and 412....I started from a different direction. I worked to find a cartridge that had roughly the same compression valving ratio as stock with about 20% improved rebound valving because stock rebound valving was weak. I purposely looked for a shorter rod.....so I could purposely build an adapter stub so I could lower the front ride height just enough to have a, level stance with improved static castor.....and not lower beyond what the stock ride control area of the spring could safely handle.

To add to this package.....just like you should do on the super....get rid of the stock bonded rubber idler bushing (which eats centerlinks) and buy the late model bronze idler bushing (CIP1). Same price.

Also....replace the centerlink...always. its the same construction and materials as the 411/412...with the same material defects....unless you have a new recent build one that undoubtedly has upgraded nylon material. Another good upgrade is to move to the later model two part stut bushing and bearing. Its worth it.

Also.....if you want to loser further than dead level with greatly improved handling....then you get into the same problems as lowering kits. You need to find an EXISTING cartridge with a shorter rod of the right height....with proper valving....and then need to source an exiting spring of the 4ight load ranges....or the right height.....or have one wound custom....if you can calculate what you require. This is why kits that claim to do more than lower just alittle and improve ride and handling..are usually lacking. Thats a lot of R&D and custom parts to make. Most are just a collection of found parts that fit.

It may, help the thought process to look in the 411/412 forum at my strut, rebuild document. RAY
barefootskater1200
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Re: 73 super beetle needs new suspension

Post by barefootskater1200 »

wow. thats a lotto digest. though it seems to say what i already suspected. that being the super was an improved design over the standard beetle, but the first attempt (pre-74 models, like mine) were found to have some flaws and were redesigned.

im really not looking to do anything drastic or expensive, and so far what i have learned is that i should not go with my original idea of just dropping several inches and hoping to see ride improvements.

i am planning to replace the front mounts, springs and inserts, and the rear shocks. the steering linkage seemed fine when i last checked it 6 months ago, aside from not having a dampener of course. and since budget is a concern i think this is the wisest choice.

i plan to get everything from cb except for the springs which they dont seem to offer and the rear shocks which i have at my parts store for much less money (monroe)

again, i really appreciate all the information and advice.
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raygreenwood
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Re: 73 super beetle needs new suspension

Post by raygreenwood »

A word of experience......the steering linkage is not fine...ever. yiu simply have no way to exert the proper leverage to test it in a non-driving, static situation.
Typically the tie rod ends are fine as long as boots are in place and they have grease.
if this is an early super.....and the tie rods have VW stamps om the back cap....then they are indeed defective in material Inside I sectioned a whole series of tie rod ends last summer including original type 1, type 3 and type 4 of the 70-73 era. They used nylon 6 inside....which turns to powder/ mush with age, grease and moisture. New tie rod ends can be had for about, $6 each.
This is the same bad material in centerlinks of the era. The only way to tell if the link has slop is to remove it and wiggle it. Cant do it on the car.

The idler bushing was flat out, defective in design and materials which is why VW switched to bronze in the last two years of Super beetle. Its yhe same price for new bronze...which will last a lifetime....as it is for originql bonded rubber.

The early strut bushings will be fine for quite some time. Just look at my strut document and tighten up the gaps in the stack up. Its about $5 in materials and a little time.

Ball joints. ...I always replace if you dont know the milage or if they are known to be over 30k miles. Its cheap....it directly affect handling and tracking.....and if one breaks....you can be dead quick.

As for mods....the real thing to ask yourself.....is are you trying to improve ride or handling. Lowering will not improve ride....ever.....unless you do it as I noted...from the ground up....with proper valving and spring tension. In that case....you can end up with stock like ride and lowered front end Which will give better handling somewhat because it lowers the center or gravity and improves the static castor. But thats a lot of R&D and a good bit of fabbing.

In a stock super......the biggest problems with basic handling comes from the issue that many have named the "shimmies". What causes that is a ckmbination of all of the bushing and linkage parts I have listed above....along with poor alignment adjustment and usually minor issues with the straightness of wheels.....magnified by the high sidewall stock tires.
You should have a steering damper but that will not damp down the collective vibration caused by the combination of slack in the idler bushing, centerlink, strut bushings and slack valving issues in stock struts.

New springs....have no value. The stock springs are so progressive andchave so much reserve tension available because they are long and well designed....that even with an average of about,10% loss with age....they are far more than enough for the super.

A good combination for better handling is to replace all the bushings, put in a set of high quality oil or low pressure gas strut, cartridges, take some of the excess slack out of the strut bushing stack up....see my document.....put a set of slightly wider, lower profile tires....like 195/60s.....and then make sure that when the car is aligned...you have proper air pressure in the tires, weight to match the, driver in the seat, a full tank of gas and qbout,25-50 lbs spare weight in the front trunk...or else the alignment will be incorrect. If yours does not have a front anti-sway bar...install one. Put high pressure gas shocks on the rear....as that helps keep the rear at full extension at all times and keeps the front more level.
Ray
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Jadewombat
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Re: 73 super beetle needs new suspension

Post by Jadewombat »

You're wasting your time, Ray, he's not looking for advice. He's looking for confirmation that lowering the car significantly always means better handling.
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raygreenwood
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Re: 73 super beetle needs new suspension

Post by raygreenwood »

Yup...probably right...but you cant say I didn't fight the good fight :lol:
Slamming these cars or lowering carelessly does nothing but wreck them. They can be made...MUCH better than stock and have a very nice ride....but ts not slap together or a simple kit. Ray
barefootskater1200
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Re: 73 super beetle needs new suspension

Post by barefootskater1200 »

Not true. Looking for advice. I do want to lower the car, but I'll be fine leaving it if it means better ride/handling.

I've already given up the idea of dropping the back end. And I'm very torn on the front, mostly just wanting to get it level.

It is lightened, with a stripped interior and no spare tire. The hood hinges were broken so I removed them and put it on racing pins. There is only half a deck lid because my turbo sticks out a bit. And I relocated the battery to the front because the tech guys at the drag races didn't like it in the passenger compartment. That all being said, and me being aware that I've probably compromised some of the ride quality already, I do want to do this right.
My engine may grenade and I'm ok with that because it's easily and cheaply fixed. And I like that aspect of the car anyway. But I don't want to drop the car if it makes driving the thing on the crappy roads here unbearable.

So I replaced the rear shocks yesterday because I had them available locally. The ones I took out were original. And it's already a huge improvement. And the front, I'm ok with leaving the stock springs and sway bar.

Strut inserts, ball joints, center link, bushings, steering damper, anything else?
Also I will be getting it aligned afterward, don't worry.
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raygreenwood
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Re: 73 super beetle needs new suspension

Post by raygreenwood »

barefootskater1200 wrote:Not true. Looking for advice. I do want to lower the car, but I'll be fine leaving it if it means better ride/handling.

I've already given up the idea of dropping the back end. And I'm very torn on the front, mostly just wanting to get it level.

It is lightened, with a stripped interior and no spare tire. The hood hinges were broken so I removed them and put it on racing pins. There is only half a deck lid because my turbo sticks out a bit. And I relocated the battery to the front because the tech guys at the drag races didn't like it in the passenger compartment. That all being said, and me being aware that I've probably compromised some of the ride quality already, I do want to do this right.
My engine may grenade and I'm ok with that because it's easily and cheaply fixed. And I like that aspect of the car anyway. But I don't want to drop the car if it makes driving the thing on the crappy roads here unbearable.

So I replaced the rear shocks yesterday because I had them available locally. The ones I took out were original. And it's already a huge improvement. And the front, I'm ok with leaving the stock springs and sway bar.

Strut inserts, ball joints, center link, bushings, steering damper, anything else?
Also I will be getting it aligned afterward, don't worry.

Ok! Good deal.......you are working the right direction. As I noted...the supers like the 411/412....are slightly high in the front end becuse.....fo4 everything I can, figure out....of a slight miscalculation in the factory design....coupled with the difficult physics of having very little mechanical weight in the front end.....a problem very few other cars had.

They had to leave enough compression and load capability for the chance you would drive with a full trunk and extra weight.....but they really didnt think about the fact that when unloaded, the strut spring would keep the cartridge largely near full extension.

If you stop and really look at the geometry.....you will find that to lower the front end just a little bit to level.....the only way to do it is with one of two items....either a strut cartridge with a shirter stroke......very hard to find with all the right steps for things like bump stop and the correct valving.

One thing I found is that there are lots of little excessive spaces in the strut stack up. You can remove these.....put in some low friction shims.....and take a look at what else is in the stack up that is not necessary.

The super beetle....like the 411 and 412....can greatly benefit from lowering of about 1" ONLY in the front end. Bring it level ascmeasured at the heater channel drip rail at the back corner of the front fender and the front, corner of the rear fender...lowest points......and tighten up all the bushings 2ith new and bette4 ones and put, good shocks on the rear.....get a swaybar if you dont have one......and put lower profile tires on.....and you 2ould be stunned at how well it handles.

In the early models like yours...there is a strut rod spacer that holds the bump stop on that sits on the step of the strut, rod. It is part # 16A listed in the diagram I found in a thread on the samba.
If you remove that spacer.....you drop about 3/4". The spring has enough comfort zone to absorb this amount of pre compression with no problems. Also the spacer between the top spring plate and strut bearing can be shortened by replacing with a thinner stack of sashers and an anti friction shim made from polypropylene you can buy at, walmart for $4.....again...read my document.

This will drop your front end about an inch and retain stock valving and about 90% factory handling but it tightens everything up nicely.

If you remove the bushing on the strut rod or shorten it too much...you will not be able to use the stock strut bushing and boot....no worry....I listed a part # in my document...actually numerous part #s....that will get you a boot and bump stop kit at any flaps that xan, becmade to work better...for about, $12.

Your car should have had a, sway bar from factory. Get new bushings. Stay Away from urethane. Ray
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