Need Input - Possible 2056 or 2270 Build

[Vee Dub Nut]

Hey everyone... been a long while since I posted on this board. I've previously spent a lot of time in the forced induction and fuel injection forums with various builds involving my '67, but for the past several years that car has been engine less and on the major back burner while I've been playing with bay window Buses and building my EJ25 Subaru swapped '74 late bay. With that project more or less "done", I'm re-focusing on getting my '67 back on the road. So what brings me into the Type 4rum? Well, I just so happen to have a VERY fresh stock 2.0 T4 Bus motor that was removed from my 74 when I did the swap, and I've been planning all along to install in the '67 once the Bus project was done.

What I have so far is a bone stock 2.0 T4. What I know about its internals:
-It was a super fresh build right before I bought the Bus, and I drove on it very little. *SHOULD* be very solid internally.
-Stock 71mm crank
-Stock rods
-Stock cam w/hydraulic lifters
-New 2.0 AMC heads
-New Mahle 94mm piston/cylinders
-Spanish Weber 40 IDFs

Now I've already started the process of gathering parts for the upright conversion. I have:

-Full DTM cooling kit (the one that uses the T4 oil cooler)
-200mm conversion flywheel, STG I pp, and clutch
-Ahnendorp/BAS 4 into 1 header

So what I'm looking for is maybe some guidance or advice regarding stepping up the performance of this T4. I have limited background with T4's in general, but I do have a lot of background in performance T1's (which I realize are not the same). I've built everything T1 related from 1915 to 2276cc, naturally aspirated, injected, and turbocharged. So where do I start with this type 4?

I've pretty well settled on wanting something "simple" this time. I don't really want to go down the road timewise/costwise to build another fuel injected or turbocharged engine. So I'm thinking either a basic 2056, or maybe a stroker 2270 is the way to go. Looking back at all my T1 engines, my 2276 TIMS STG 2 K8 cammed engine was one of my most favorites. I'd *LIKE* to end up with something similar performance wise. I realize this likely would push me towards building a 2270 T4, but depending on how much that would snowball, I may consider backing off for a more cost effective (and less HP) 2056.

Some questions:

-How much HP/motor will my BAS header really support?
Ive read some debate on that here. Since its a brand new already purchased part, I don't really want to replace it. Even if that means I need to stick to a more mild build.

-Cams: I see the 163/86b and 86b/86c cams suggested a lot.
What sort of power levels/displacement are each of these ideally suited for?

-Heads: How far can I go with my existing AMC 2.0 heads?
I *assume* these are 39mm intake and 33mm exhaust. I expect these will be pretty limiting?

-Heads: I see that AA pistons is offering some "performance" versions of the AMC T4 heads.
Stg I: https://aapistons.com/collections/cylin ... tage-1-p-p
Stg 2: https://aapistons.com/collections/cylin ... tage-2-p-p
Anyone with any experience with these? 48mm intake valve seems larger than the 44mm recommendation I've seen quite a bit. What sort of intake valve size/power level/bore size rules of thumb are there for T4 heads? I know that maybe not a "simple" questions, but for a T4 newb, what sort of advice do y'all have?

-How about AA T4 piston cylinder kits?
Looks like they have a lot of offerings. For both the 2056 and 2270 I'd need some sort of 96mm jug. Looks like I can get forged JE pistons in either standard or stroker pin height configuration. They also offer a standard stroke 24mm pin 96 piston kit as well. What about their brial cylinders? Are they worth using? Looks like 22mm pins are more or less "standard" for the forged JE/stroker pistons, so I would be looking at different rods (likely some sort of H-beam)

Connecting rod length/big end journal size/etc
This is something I'm still trying to research and learn about. I realize there is a TON of information buried in this forum. I'm still digging in obviously. Any tips? I assume there is an ideal rod length and journal size on the 2270 that minimizes internal clearancing and cylinder spacing.

With some of those basic questions out of the way, here is what I'm thinking:

I'd LIKE to go with a 2270. I would love to end up with something in that 175hp range similar to where my old T1 2276 was. Obviously I would need:
-Bigger valved/ported cylinder heads (maybe the AA/AMC heads?)
-DPR 78mm crank (journal size?)
-H-beam rods w/22mm pin
-96mm stroker piston kit (AA kit with JE pistons, maybe birals or just standard iron jugs?)
-Cam (what would you recommend?)
-Little bits and bobs (cam gear, lifters, chromoly pushrods, solid rocker shaft kit, etc)
-Dual Weber 48 IDFs
-DTM Cooling (HAVE)
-BAS header (HAVE)
What else?

If I were to stay with something more basic and lower power level and build a 2056, what should I change?
-Heads (can I do anything with my existing heads, or still best to up valve size/porting?)
-Reuse stock crank
-Reuse stock rods
-AA 96mm "standard" piston/cylinder kit (24mm pin)
-Cam (again, what would you recommend?)
-All the same little bits and bobs
-Reuse my Weber 40 IDFs
-DTM Cooling (HAVE)
-BAS header (HAVE)
What else?

Obviously these are two very different builds, two different performance levels, and two different price tags. I certainly understand to build the 2270 right it will cost some $$$$. I'm OK with that to a point. If it snowballs to much I'll just stick with the more economical 2056. I *WANT* the 2270, but certainly don't *NEED* it. I really just want to the car drivable again. Depending on how much more it would cost to go ahead and build the 2270 will make the decision for me.

And just so its not all words, here is the motor as it sits currently.. Anxious to get it reconfigured and in the '67 soon!

Certainly appreciate any advice and input from the group. I'm searching and reading through old posts as I go along trying to learn what I can, but I thought I'd go ahead and get a thread going while I had some time this morning to do so. Looking forward to the discussion!

[H2OSB]

I'm no expert, and probably offer the least valuable contribution compared to many people on here, but I've been looking at building and gathering parts for a 2056 for quite a while (for me, that's the upper limit).

You've already got the best cooling set up that's a bolt on affair. There are others SLIGHTLY more effective (Reichert, debatably), but a bird in the hand..... IF you go 2056, the T4 oil cooler is a tad too much. It's widely considered the T1 cooler is more effective choice when a T4 is in the upright config. I'm unaware if a T1 oil cooler can be used with the DTM, but I imagine it could.

The BAS/Ahnendorp exhaust is an excellent piece, and is always on the list when people consider what the "best" choices are. Jacob Raby used to prefer that one until he got together with Tiger at A-1 and developed something ever more T4 specific. The list the high performance ehhausts usually includes: Tangerine, CSP-Python, BAS/Ahnendorp, A-1, and perhaps one or two more. You're set there, depending on the size you have. You want to START at 1 5/8th with the 2056.

Regarding cams, you're on the right track with Web. I'm uncertain about anyone else except perhaps CBPerformance, but I don't think their selection is varied enough for you to consider (they only have two). I prefer both companies for their cam hardening processes which give the cam a fighting chance at a decent life. As far as profiles, I, personally, like the 86a. But also like 163/86b you mentioned. Really depends on what rev range you're after, your CR, valve size, exhaust and fuel induction among other considerations.

Your carbs would be ok for the 2056, but I think you'd need to go bigger for the 2270.

I can't really give the best input on heads due to having to be cheap-ish on my build. This is where you'll spend the most money, and where you'll make the greatest differences in performance. A very good all around valve size is 42/36. That would work with either engine size you're considering. Quality head works goes a long way here.

That's about all I got. Good luck with your selection.
H2OSB

[wreck]

what size primaries pipes does the BAS head have ? That will govern everything else if you want to use that header .
Your 2 lt heads can have up to 46mm in and 38mm exhaust and be safe and be ported with good bowl shapes . I went 40mm on the exhaust and had an issue with core shift/ porosity and had a hole in the port wall under the seat . AA also have bare 2 lt 914 castings that have a better spark plug location and would be a good option also. (they had a big combustion chamber which is and issue if you want higher compression to match a good cam)

If you go for a stroker crank , use one with Chev or Type 1 journals because the rods are cheaper . just stay at 78mm or under for less clearance issues .
AA also have a 98mm bore kit which is like a 90.5mm kit to a type 1 . you have to machine the case and heads but not as much as the 103mm/105mm kits.

[Ephry73]

I would consider the A-1 sidewinder option if you could find one. Maybe modify the BAS header at the collector end if you can. A 2.0 type 4 with good compression and ignition should be a blast in a ‘67.


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[Vee Dub Nut]

All, thanks for the input so far. I'll address various comments below:

H2OSB
Agreed, cooling is set at this point. Interesting comment about the T4 vs T1 cooler. I plan to reuse my T4 oil cooler in the DTM shroud. I'll have a temp gauge though, so I can keep an eye on it. One could always install a thermostat in the oil cooler lines as well I suppose if the oil ran too cold.

The BAS/Ahnendorp header is advertised at 39mm ID. Assuming its your standard 0.065" wall tubing, that means its nominally 1-5/8" OD. I figure this would be a limiting point at some level with a 2270, but I would expect it to support ~175hp OK.

Cam choice will certainly depend on what displacement I end up going with, and what heads as well. The CR will be tailored to suit the cam. Obviously I need to determine engine size and desired power level. I was just hoping there might be some more insight between the 163/86b and 86b/86c cams in regards to "normal" power band/level/target compression/etc.

Agreed that the 40 IDFs would be fine for a mild 2056. I would bump up to 48 IDFs for a built 2270.

wreck
As I wrote above, the ID of the BAS/Ahnendorp header is supposed to be 39mm. That should essentially be 1-5/8" tubing assuming a "normal" wall thickness of ~0.065". I would *think* this would be ok at the desired ~175hp level?? At least, that would be the expectation in T1 land. Anything different in T4 land?

If I end up wanting to change valve sizes, I'd likely just sell my stock AMC heads and replace them with a new set with larger seats/valves installed. That is, unless I can find a good recommendation stateside to send them out to. I do not know of anyone in my local area with T4 head experience.

How big of a deal is the plug angle? I understand that the Porsche 2.0L placement is better, but don't have a good feel for what sort of difference it actually makes.

Thanks for the suggestion on the crank. DPR looks to offer up to 78mm T4 cranks with T1 rod journals. Certainly there is lots of rod options in the T1 configuration. If I've read correctly, I'd need ~5.325" rods w/the 78mm crank and the "stroker" pistons? Is there one "standard" pin height for the stroker pistons for the T4 like there is in the T1, or is it not that straight forward?

Thanks for the info on the pistons as well. I did see that AA has the 98mm too. If I've read correctly, the 96mm slip in right?

Ephry73
I tried to reach out to A1 before buying the BAS header, but didn't get a response. I bought the header only from BAS/Ahnendorp. I plan to make my own muffler arrangement. I didn't care for what they had to offer.

There is a GOOD chance that the engine will be installed in the car just as it is in stock 2.0L form for now. It will certainly perform a little better than any stock 1600 or mild 1776 would, but the tame heads and lame hydro cam will really keep it held back.

[Ephry73]

All, thanks for the input so far. I'll address various comments below:

H2OSB
Agreed, cooling is set at this point. Interesting comment about the T4 vs T1 cooler. I plan to reuse my T4 oil cooler in the DTM shroud. I'll have a temp gauge though, so I can keep an eye on it. One could always install a thermostat in the oil cooler lines as well I suppose if the oil ran too cold.

The BAS/Ahnendorp header is advertised at 39mm ID. Assuming its your standard 0.065" wall tubing, that means its nominally 1-5/8" OD. I figure this would be a limiting point at some level with a 2270, but I would expect it to support ~175hp OK.

Cam choice will certainly depend on what displacement I end up going with, and what heads as well. The CR will be tailored to suit the cam. Obviously I need to determine engine size and desired power level. I was just hoping there might be some more insight between the 163/86b and 86b/86c cams in regards to "normal" power band/level/target compression/etc.

Agreed that the 40 IDFs would be fine for a mild 2056. I would bump up to 48 IDFs for a built 2270.

wreck
As I wrote above, the ID of the BAS/Ahnendorp header is supposed to be 39mm. That should essentially be 1-5/8" tubing assuming a "normal" wall thickness of ~0.065". I would *think* this would be ok at the desired ~175hp level?? At least, that would be the expectation in T1 land. Anything different in T4 land?

If I end up wanting to change valve sizes, I'd likely just sell my stock AMC heads and replace them with a new set with larger seats/valves installed. That is, unless I can find a good recommendation stateside to send them out to. I do not know of anyone in my local area with T4 head experience.

How big of a deal is the plug angle? I understand that the Porsche 2.0L placement is better, but don't have a good feel for what sort of difference it actually makes.

Thanks for the suggestion on the crank. DPR looks to offer up to 78mm T4 cranks with T1 rod journals. Certainly there is lots of rod options in the T1 configuration. If I've read correctly, I'd need ~5.325" rods w/the 78mm crank and the "stroker" pistons? Is there one "standard" pin height for the stroker pistons for the T4 like there is in the T1, or is it not that straight forward?

Thanks for the info on the pistons as well. I did see that AA has the 98mm too. If I've read correctly, the 96mm slip in right?

Ephry73
I tried to reach out to A1 before buying the BAS header, but didn't get a response. I bought the header only from BAS/Ahnendorp. I plan to make my own muffler arrangement. I didn't care for what they had to offer.

There is a GOOD chance that the engine will be installed in the car just as it is in stock 2.0L form for now. It will certainly perform a little better than any stock 1600 or mild 1776 would, but the tame heads and lame hydro cam will really keep it held back.

If I remember correctly I ran a 1 5/8” header on my 2270 as discussed with Tiger based on my camshaft selection and rpm range. I coupled that with a 2.5” fat boy and that motor pulled very hard in the Ghia. Solid lines on the ground first through third gear.

If you’re not opening the 2.0 you can always ensure the cooling is handled as well as the ignition. Get some higher ratio rockers and call if good.

If you decide to open it up the 2.0 with a decent camshaft and higher CR will most definitely be a beast.


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[Vee Dub Nut]

So here is my current "recipe" for a 2270. Let me know what you think, or if you have any other suggestions. I'm building a basic budget off of this idea to see if I go for it or dial it back and go 2056.

-AA/AMC 48x38 valves, dual springs, either their STG I or STG II port
-DPR 78mm crank, T1 journal
-5.325" H-beam rods, T1 journal, 22mm pin
-96mm AA Stroker piston kit (JE pistons) - still sort of a toss up between the birals or just standard iron jugs
-Cam (Still trying to get more info, but thinking 86b/86c. What would you recommend?)
-Little bits and bobs (cam gear, lifters, chromoly pushrods, solid rocker shaft kit, etc)
-Dual Weber 48 IDFs
-DTM Cooling (HAVE)
-BAS header (HAVE)

For the 2056, I'd likely just clean up my existing 2.0L heads, swap in some 96mm piston/cylinder and a new mild cam, then just run my current 40 IFDs and be done with it. Certainly a lot more cost effective, but not as "fun"

[Ephry73]

So here is my current "recipe" for a 2270. Let me know what you think, or if you have any other suggestions. I'm building a basic budget off of this idea to see if I go for it or dial it back and go 2056.

-AA/AMC 48x38 valves, dual springs, either their STG I or STG II port
-DPR 78mm crank, T1 journal
-5.325" H-beam rods, T1 journal, 22mm pin
-96mm AA Stroker piston kit (JE pistons) - still sort of a toss up between the birals or just standard iron jugs
-Cam (Still trying to get more info, but thinking 86b/86c. What would you recommend?)
-Little bits and bobs (cam gear, lifters, chromoly pushrods, solid rocker shaft kit, etc)
-Dual Weber 48 IDFs
-DTM Cooling (HAVE)
-BAS header (HAVE)

For the 2056, I'd likely just clean up my existing 2.0L heads, swap in some 96mm piston/cylinder and a new mild cam, then just run my current 40 IFDs and be done with it. Certainly a lot more cost effective, but not as "fun"

You can always get Weber or dells 44 with the correct venturies and jetting and will flow well. The 48s are huge. Sounds like a good recipe. What static compression ratio are you looking for?


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[Vee Dub Nut]

You can always get Weber or dells 44 with the correct venturies and jetting and will flow well. The 48s are huge. Sounds like a good recipe. What static compression ratio are you looking for?

Yea, the 48 IDFs are pretty big. I used them before back on my 2276 T1 motor around that same ~175hp level, and I really liked their manners. Their setup was very easy, with pretty minimal changes from how they come out of the box (at least at near'ish sea level conditions). With 44 IDF's I'd have to get into vent changes to get them to flow enough air (and jetting too). Seems like it would be more direct to just get 48's to start out. Note, I'm talking IDF's, NOT IDA's. Big difference in manners.

Static compression would be based on cam selection. I don't know that I have enough knowledge to say for sure right now, but I assume in that low to mid 9-9.5:1 range. I could be way off base, but that is what I'd expect from my past T1 experience.

[Ephry73]

You can always get Weber or dells 44 with the correct venturies and jetting and will flow well. The 48s are huge. Sounds like a good recipe. What static compression ratio are you looking for?

Yea, the 48 IDFs are pretty big. I used them before back on my 2276 T1 motor around that same ~175hp level, and I really liked their manners. Their setup was very easy, with pretty minimal changes from how they come out of the box (at least at near'ish sea level conditions). With 44 IDF's I'd have to get into vent changes to get them to flow enough air (and jetting too). Seems like it would be more direct to just get 48's to start out. Note, I'm talking IDF's, NOT IDA's. Big difference in manners.

Static compression would be based on cam selection. I don't know that I have enough knowledge to say for sure right now, but I assume in that low to mid 9-9.5:1 range. I could be way off base, but that is what I'd expect from my past T1 experience.

Seems you have it pretty figured out. Yes I was talking about the IdF units. If you have experience with them it should be fine. Stock in a 1.7l is somewhere around 7.8 or so. The 2l was close to 8 or around very low 8.
High to mid 9s just makes it fun. Jetting and fueling corrected of course.

All this talk about type 4 swaps has me looking for an early beetle to do a swap on.


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[Clatter]

This is kind of a tough one...

A stock bus motor, and what you plan to build, actually share very few of the same parts.

I'd be inclined to leave the bus motor together,
and either run it with very low expectations,
Or sell it altogether and recoup costs.

[Clatter]

Something I don't like about those AA heads.. Well a couple of things anyway.

First, they leave the plug angle in the crappy bus/411 location.
The 2.0 914 plug angle is good for a LOT of power with little downside.
If they are welding up reinforcements between the fins next to the plug hole,
As well as doing seats, etc.
Why not go ahead and re-locate the plugs?

48 x 38 valves are going to be a waste with even a 96 bore, IMHO.
For what you gain in valve weight, you'll be shrouding your 'flow cone' with cylinder wall at that valve size.
If you go up to 103s or something, then that's different..

Bet you a set of nice stock 2.0 914 heads would make more useable power under the curve than those "stage II" AA heads.

Spending that much of my money, I'd get a set of heads from the type 4 store, FWIW.

[Clatter]

-AA/AMC 48x38 valves, dual springs, either their STG I or STG II port
-DPR 78mm crank, T1 journal
-5.325" H-beam rods, T1 journal, 22mm pin
-96mm AA Stroker piston kit (JE pistons) - still sort of a toss up between the birals or just standard iron jugs
-Cam (Still trying to get more info, but thinking 86b/86c. What would you recommend?)
-Little bits and bobs (cam gear, lifters, chromoly pushrods, solid rocker shaft kit, etc)
-Dual Weber 48 IDFs
-DTM Cooling (HAVE)
-BAS header (HAVE)

^^This looks like a good choice^^
Switching to type 1 rod setup makes sense.

With your 1 5/8 exhaust, I'd maybe be inclined to stay at 163/86b vs. 86b/86c.
I'm doing a motor with 163/86b right now,
and was able to run beehives, provided the valves got sunk a bit in the heads; it's right at the limit.
Single springs last longer and run cooler, the valve guides stay in place better when the bosses aren't cut.

Build your type 4 around the exhaust.
Too big of an exhaust might make it a bit 'peaky' and that's not the end of the world.
Too small, and you leave power on the table, and possibly run hot.
I'd stay 42 x 36 and 2270. Basically copy the Jake 'Type 4 torquer' of yore (it ran 163/86b equivalent BTW).
You'll be quite surprised at how big/fat it will be.

Big problem I have with building type 4s is that they just stay together forever.
I keep wanting to tear it down and do this/that, but it just makes no sense to take apart a perfectly running oil-tight motor.

[wreck]

I've a a friend with a 2.6 making close to 200hp with a 1 5/8 header and 48 IDF's
Hoffman machine , (Len Hoffman) is the person who developed heads for Jake Raby .
Fat Performance
EWM all have type 4 know how.
New 2lt 914 castings with 44 or 46 intakes and 36 exhausts would be my choice Len mentioned in an old thread that the plug angle is worth about 10% power gain . And still would work in a 96mm bore.
Clatter is spot on with the beehives . (get from John AC parts net or Dan Ruddock on the Samba)
Cam depends on where you want the power .

[Clatter]

Check this out,
At least in the picture, FAT is doing the plug re-lo mod..
https://fatperformance-rimco.com/collec ... long-block