Suggestions on replacement caliper
- OrangeCrusher
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Suggestions on replacement caliper
I made some decisions when I originally designed my rear disc brake setup based on cost and it ended up being a mistake. I found Audi S4 rear calipers cheap and tried to make them work. Problem is they are for thick vented rotors and I have to use three pads to make up the difference. Also despite swapping out several different sized wilwood MC's, they don't have much stopping power like I had hoped.
I'm about to get this rig out on the road and I'm thinking about changing calipers to a solid disc type but I'm not sure of all my options for calipers. In the past I've been told old mustangs, or toyotas had solid discs.
If anyone has any good suggestions for me I'm all ears. Obviously, fabrication is not a worry. I just want the most straight forward solution. I'm running these on the rear where most of my weight is and I have big tires to stop.
Pics from when I was originally fabbing them up;
I'm about to get this rig out on the road and I'm thinking about changing calipers to a solid disc type but I'm not sure of all my options for calipers. In the past I've been told old mustangs, or toyotas had solid discs.
If anyone has any good suggestions for me I'm all ears. Obviously, fabrication is not a worry. I just want the most straight forward solution. I'm running these on the rear where most of my weight is and I have big tires to stop.
Pics from when I was originally fabbing them up;
woodsbuggy
1970 Baja
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Re: Suggestions on replacement caliper
Maybe just a simple empi caliper with a custom mount plate??
woodsbuggy
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Re: Suggestions on replacement caliper
A very interesting question. One of the reasons for the wider disc spread, if I remember correctly, is for quicker heat dissipation to stop potential warping. If you look at drum brakes, then at disc brakes you will see several different design things that are different that can/could stop potential warping.
This is slightly off subject by you might want to look into this also especially if you are street riding your rig.
While I am running rear disc brakes in my black buggy (I forget where I got them now as it has been so long ago that I got them) off-road use, where parking brakes are not necessarily required, a lot of the newer cars/setups now have electric parking brakes which often require a separate mount for them. I am not sure... but I think the "P"-brake is electrically shut closed then, when you push the button, the brake is electrically unlocked not like a manual parking brake, where pulling and unlocking via, the handle so the cable does the locking, holding it in place, then unlocking. Not sure yet but based on the noises I have heard and starting requirements (I have to ask the question to a mechanic who knows for sure) but I think this is how they work now days. My new electro/hydraulic vehicle has this and some other things that I am having to learn how to deal with .
The last I heard (when I looked into it) was that electro-hydraulic parking brakes (at least in the state I live in [unless big business had bought this rule out too]) are not legal as there has been a lot of problems with them in the past. My blue buggy came with drum brakes but had the electro-hydraulic setup which did let loose and did body damage to the buggy as it rolled backwards down an alley but (thank goodness for the front-end alignment causing it to turn when going backwards) luckily it did not roll down the hill and out into traffic. The rear brakes also locked up a couple of times on the dunes and I had to open the bleed valve to get the pressure reduced.
Lee
This is slightly off subject by you might want to look into this also especially if you are street riding your rig.
While I am running rear disc brakes in my black buggy (I forget where I got them now as it has been so long ago that I got them) off-road use, where parking brakes are not necessarily required, a lot of the newer cars/setups now have electric parking brakes which often require a separate mount for them. I am not sure... but I think the "P"-brake is electrically shut closed then, when you push the button, the brake is electrically unlocked not like a manual parking brake, where pulling and unlocking via, the handle so the cable does the locking, holding it in place, then unlocking. Not sure yet but based on the noises I have heard and starting requirements (I have to ask the question to a mechanic who knows for sure) but I think this is how they work now days. My new electro/hydraulic vehicle has this and some other things that I am having to learn how to deal with .
The last I heard (when I looked into it) was that electro-hydraulic parking brakes (at least in the state I live in [unless big business had bought this rule out too]) are not legal as there has been a lot of problems with them in the past. My blue buggy came with drum brakes but had the electro-hydraulic setup which did let loose and did body damage to the buggy as it rolled backwards down an alley but (thank goodness for the front-end alignment causing it to turn when going backwards) luckily it did not roll down the hill and out into traffic. The rear brakes also locked up a couple of times on the dunes and I had to open the bleed valve to get the pressure reduced.
Lee
- OrangeCrusher
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Re: Suggestions on replacement caliper
Chock that up to overcomplicating things, something I do well.
I've been doing some research and older Hondas had a solid rotor and Tokico calipers. Around a 50mm piston on those. My S4's have a 43mm piston. The S4 worked against a 11in dia. rotor while the big Honda used a 9in dia. rotor.
I've read that Ghias had 50mm pistons or was that the pad surface?? hmm?
Anyway, I'm unsure if going with a caliper using a larger piston is going to give me better braking power or not. Seems like it should but brake wizardry always confuses me. Especially the whole MC size and effect. I have a hard time keeping it all straight.
I can get those calipers pretty cheap but I'm not sure how they'll do in the end.
what will make all the difference for me?
- calipers meant for solid rotors
- calipers with a smaller/larger bore
- calipers used in a non boosted brake system
- do I need a larger line going back to my S4's? (I have standard 3/16")
- do I need all 4 brakes on one MC?
I wish I knew what it was exactly that is keeping me from having a strong pinch on my rears.
I've been doing some research and older Hondas had a solid rotor and Tokico calipers. Around a 50mm piston on those. My S4's have a 43mm piston. The S4 worked against a 11in dia. rotor while the big Honda used a 9in dia. rotor.
I've read that Ghias had 50mm pistons or was that the pad surface?? hmm?
Anyway, I'm unsure if going with a caliper using a larger piston is going to give me better braking power or not. Seems like it should but brake wizardry always confuses me. Especially the whole MC size and effect. I have a hard time keeping it all straight.
I can get those calipers pretty cheap but I'm not sure how they'll do in the end.
what will make all the difference for me?
- calipers meant for solid rotors
- calipers with a smaller/larger bore
- calipers used in a non boosted brake system
- do I need a larger line going back to my S4's? (I have standard 3/16")
- do I need all 4 brakes on one MC?
I wish I knew what it was exactly that is keeping me from having a strong pinch on my rears.
woodsbuggy
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Re: Suggestions on replacement caliper
Kharmann ghia was a 40mm piston so I may be going in the wrong direction...
woodsbuggy
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Re: Suggestions on replacement caliper
brake line size increase would reduce pressure - not good
woodsbuggy
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Re: Suggestions on replacement caliper
maybe I should finally try a residual pressure valve. -more things to go bad..
woodsbuggy
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Re: Suggestions on replacement caliper
I did get a chance to check on brakes.
E-parking brakes are used. Push the button and the parking brake locks up, let up on the button and the brake stays locked. You push on the button again and the parking brake unlocks.
Hydraulic parking brakes (and electric/parking brakes) are still not legal (not safe in any form).
Regular (so far) brakes are still hydraulic.
The size/power of brakes is another thing. Too much in the rear can cause front end weakness as the rear brakes will go into lock easier than the front brakes would. If I remember correctly, the shifting of weight from the rear towards the front of the vehicle during hard braking can cause the rear brakes to lock easier as the weight is transferred off the rear of the vehicle.
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/the-tool ... eeds/31069
A lot of info here but page down to proportioning valve" for more answers.
Lee
E-parking brakes are used. Push the button and the parking brake locks up, let up on the button and the brake stays locked. You push on the button again and the parking brake unlocks.
Hydraulic parking brakes (and electric/parking brakes) are still not legal (not safe in any form).
Regular (so far) brakes are still hydraulic.
The size/power of brakes is another thing. Too much in the rear can cause front end weakness as the rear brakes will go into lock easier than the front brakes would. If I remember correctly, the shifting of weight from the rear towards the front of the vehicle during hard braking can cause the rear brakes to lock easier as the weight is transferred off the rear of the vehicle.
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/the-tool ... eeds/31069
A lot of info here but page down to proportioning valve" for more answers.
Lee
- OrangeCrusher
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Re: Suggestions on replacement caliper
Being a woodsbuggy I'm not terribly concerned about weight bias since it will never be right. I need the rear tires to do all the braking. No matter what they will always have more traction than the fronts.
woodsbuggy
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Re: Suggestions on replacement caliper
I understand how a proportioning valve can be used to limit power to the rear, but I don't see how it can increase what I already have.
That's my problem. I just don't have enough clamping force on those rear discs. It could be I have not matched components correctly. I've done a lot of studying to try to learn what I may have done wrong. I swapped MC's of three different sizes to see the difference that made. I may try inserting a 2psi RPV because my MC's are about the same level as my calipers, but I don't expect it to work wonders. I think the real problem is the caliper piston ratio. I keep asking these questions hoping to run into a person who understands the black majic of brake system design.
That's my problem. I just don't have enough clamping force on those rear discs. It could be I have not matched components correctly. I've done a lot of studying to try to learn what I may have done wrong. I swapped MC's of three different sizes to see the difference that made. I may try inserting a 2psi RPV because my MC's are about the same level as my calipers, but I don't expect it to work wonders. I think the real problem is the caliper piston ratio. I keep asking these questions hoping to run into a person who understands the black majic of brake system design.
woodsbuggy
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Re: Suggestions on replacement caliper
I've had someone let me know what calipers from other cars have been successfully grafted onto type 1's but for the life of me I can't find it. I think it may have been Nissans. I also found some other possibilities perusing Rock Auto for about five hours last friday. I keep coming back to the ghia caliper however. Unfortunately they are kinda hard to get in their original ATE form. I've read they are better to buy and rebuild than take chances with the new or remans available. Either way I guess I still have some possible solutions I need to give a shot before I go back to the drawing board, one being the RPV
woodsbuggy
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Re: Suggestions on replacement caliper
One thing I'm not going to do is buy a kit. Homey don't play that.
woodsbuggy
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Re: Suggestions on replacement caliper
In Australia a few people have adapted rear brakes from a Ford EA falcon which has a solid rear disk. Its a heavy car so they should be decent size calipers (44.6mm piston). I'm thinking a US Mustang may have a similar setup as a lot of our ford stuff is the same as yours.
There is a bit of info here [https://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/vie ... ?tid=87353]
this pic shows how easy it would be to redrill the 4 holes in the mount to adapt to our trailing arms. [https://altra9.com.au/product/ford-falc ... brake-kit/]
There is a bit of info here [https://forums.aussieveedubbers.com/vie ... ?tid=87353]
this pic shows how easy it would be to redrill the 4 holes in the mount to adapt to our trailing arms. [https://altra9.com.au/product/ford-falc ... brake-kit/]
- OrangeCrusher
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