Lowering a 71 411

GeorgeK · Post by **GeorgeK** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:50 pm

Anyone done it or have any advice?

George

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:19 pm

Well, if you'll look through the entire forum, it looks like people have done everything from cut springs, to custom shorter springs, to Ray's modification idea (correct me if I'm wrong) which uses a VW Quantum strut cartridge inside a section of Rabbit strut tube, inserted into the original strut housing, with the spring perch moved down to keep the uncompressed spring length the same. Me, I've got some ideas kicking around my head, just gotta stop buying cars so I can start buying more parts...Search for posts by raygreenwood, I'm sure his way is the best. I am planning on doing something similar to what he is suggesting. The other ways will probably work, but reduce the longevity of the the front suspension parts, and possibly make it handle poorly, depending on luck and knowledge.

DeathBus · Post by **DeathBus** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:05 pm

One guy had one that was full of quickkrete bags, thats how the PO lowered it.

tuna · Post by **tuna** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:21 pm

This car was lowered with custom wound lowering springs.

http://www.tunacan.net/t4corner/custom/raceday412.shtml

The weak point of the suspension is the ball joint, and something that
needs to be addressed. They are no longer available and are the first
to break.

Tuna

DeathBus · Post by **DeathBus** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 5:27 pm

That is a sweet car, I have it as my desktop wall paper.

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:55 pm

Tuna is 100% correct. If you are okay at welding...its really not hard to lower one of these..at least in the front. The stock springs should be kept at all costs. They are superb. They will allow this car to outhandle to your best daydreams....but not with the stock shock/strut. The audi 4000 quantum cartridge...in the KYB GR-2 ONLY!....as far as I have found....has singularly excellent valving for very high performance on this car. It actually performs like crap on the quantum. Its a valving issue on that car.

Heres is the easiest way to lower the front end of the 412... to 3" only without cutting the strut tube. (1) on an assembled stock strut, measure the length of the spring from top perch to bottom. Record that. (2) get the quantum cartridges, install them in the strut tube with a piece of steel pipe in the bottom cut to the right length to make them fit flush at the top of the tube under the cap. Now install the top plate and the strut bearing.....all without the spring. (3) measure how far down the tube the bottom perch would now have to be to have the correct spring compression. (4) mark that. (5) with a cut-off wheel.....carefully.... cut off the lower spring perch. (6) slide it down, clamp it and weld it nto the tube.

You now have a lowered front end...by about 3"....with stock spring compression. The 411/412 only uses about 6.5" of its total available rod length of about 14" (going off memory here) . The quantum cartridge has a rod about 4" shorter including the changes in the step, so the quantum strut has plenty of room
You will have to use the late model strut bearing...but its better and cheaper anyway.

Problems. Your caster will be off. You need to take a piece of 1.5" diameter bar stock, about 4" long and have an oval hole milled through the center, from end to end...about 1" in length...and wide enough to fit the bolt that holds the subframe on. Cut that piece of bar stock into two approximately 1.5" long pieces. Now...remove the "T" piece subframe from the car. Take it to a good machine shop or put it on a good drill press. With a carbide bi-metal hole saw...or a milling machine.....set up on the bolt hole on the forward wings...left and right...where the subframe bolts to the car with 19mm bolts. Drill those out to make clean 1.5" holes. Now...orient the slotted slice of bar stock you have made...precisely front to back....and weld it top and bottom to the T-piece.
Since the rear subframe bolt already slides on a slotted T-nut in the body....you have now made an adjustment to the front bolt holes in the subframe to allow the entire subframe to be slid backwards or forwards by up to 8*....to adjust perfectly for castor. Slot the control arm holes and put in eccentric bolts identical to the ones on the rear trailing arms and you now have full camber control.

The ball joints. I am working on a cure for this using one or several very stiff springed ball joints that I have found that press into american truck A-arms. You may have to buy a taper ream for say $40 or so...to ream a 1/2mm or so....but if I can design a simple 3-bolt holder block from steel...that any machine shop could easily do...and have the joint press in from the top and be held by a snap ring.....this could be great and cheap.

The weak part on the ball joint....is the spring not the pin. The spring is too weak...and the strut springs on the front end are very powerful....but the shocks are crap. When the strut cartridges crap out....the spring gets pounded when the shocks bottom too hard. It shatters or weakens letting the ball pound the edges of the socket. It tears things up fast.
Also...if you do not lower this car correctly..and keep the stock spring tension...or if you try to use the high pressure gas version of the KYB strut...you will destroy the ball joint in less than a months time. Been there...done that....more than once. When you snap a ball joint out of its socket...you are potentially a dead man. Ray

ecdez · Post by **ecdez** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:55 am

Sounds like Mr. Crap

has the same problem as me. Can't stop buying them long enough to fix one.

Just funnin' with you with the Mr. Crap comment.

I think if Ray combined all his posts, he would have a pretty good Type 4 reference manual.

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:42 am

I am indeed Mr. Crap!
Anyway, so the Quantum/Audi 4000 strut cartridge fits the diameter of the strut tube? Oh, that's even better than I was thinking. Then it only needs a support spacer to bring it to the top then.
Now, I haven't done it yet, but in my mind, I'm thinking that the spring perch might be kind of mangled once it's ground off. I was looking at some pictures of an adjustable Super Beetle strut and took interest in the spring perch section that looks to already be a seperate part from the strut body. Is the diameter of the strut tube the same between the 411/412 and the early Super Beetle? I had the thought of removing the lower spring perch from a 411/412 strut and welding on the adjustable Super Beetle spring perch. Anyway, just a thought.

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 7:36 am

I forgot to mention a couple things. The best way to get th spring perch off without mangling...is with a plasma cutter. Most body shops have them..They can cut off the perch in 10 seconds with 1/32" line...like butter! It will not be mangled. The super beetle tubes are smaller by about 3/16". But...the late rabbit struts are almost identical in diameter....actually they will fit inside with a little pounding. Think about the implications of that for a second.... In fact

one of my other posts has an even simpler way to at least install and lower the height...if the spring perch on the rabbit is the same size. If its not far off...or can be simply added to with welding......you can install the quantum cartridge in the rabbit tube....it fits perfect...then trim down the 411 tube past the perch...tap the rabbit assembly...complete with perch...down into the 411 tube stub...align..weld the perimeter. The one thing to verify is the height of the rabbit perch in relationj to the top. I'll check and get back. Ray

ubercrap · Post by **ubercrap** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:14 am

Ah yes, I get it! Yes, that sounds cool, I like the idea of not having to cut and relocate a spring perch...

raygreenwood · Post by **raygreenwood** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 5:54 pm

When you think in that perspective...that being I just need a certain diameter on the tube...and a certain diameter on the perch...and have to be able to use the stock lower ball joint mounting....there ay be hundreds of cars whose strut tubes can be donors. Most strut cartridges....wether Japanese, American or German...fall into about one of three dimatere sizes. Ray

DeathBus · Post by **DeathBus** » Tue Jul 27, 2004 6:06 pm

Rocks? Bricks? A heavy Human body?

Zen · Post by **Zen** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 3:43 pm

DeathBus wrote:One guy had one that was full of quickkrete bags, thats how the PO lowered it.

Yep, that works . . . I don't recommend it though. It'd probably handle like crap!

tuna · Post by **tuna** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 5:35 pm

Ray,

Remember this is one of the subjects I'd like you cover on my site. It'd be great to have such a resource for people interested in this could turn. I know I want to preserve this knowledge for when I get my 411.

Tuna

DeathBus · Post by **DeathBus** » Wed Jul 28, 2004 6:02 pm

Im gonna go for the full look, lower my car and put those nifty spinner rims on it!

2 Doors I think look great lowered, wagons, you might get away with it, 4 doors I think would look goofy from the side.