Howdy all, I've been following Ray's starting troubleshooting steps and so far I am finding NADA!. Here goes: 1) "clean N safety switch", Can't even find it!, took the face plate off, selector scale off, no switch to be found! Am I supposed to remove also the base moulding? where is the dam thing?
2) "check the very long in gray cable cover on right side of vehicle.." Also can't find it! is it under the vehicle on the outside, or under the carpeting on the inside? 3) "check three ground wires under FI manifold" Can't see the connectors, Do I have to remove the manifold? In my T3 the are right there to the right of dist., Not here! I badly need more clues here Also from looking under the car, it is clear the PO had recently replaced the starter. Its still shiney with the tag on it.
Hey can you describe the conditions some more I must have missed whats going on with her. Does the car turn over? Do you hear the fuel pump relay inside the car click and do you hear the fuel pump run for a few seconds like a humming sound? After you turn the key to the on position(not running) and after you hear the pump cycle on if you press the gas pedal or move the throttle from the engine bay do you hear a kidda buzzing sound of the injectors firing? Does she have gas? I did that,lol! Ray will help you in the right direction! Let us know some more.
Thx Bill
p.s the fuel injection ground terminal is hard to see it's under the left intake tubes on the engine block with three prong connector.
the original thread was "412 wont start" when I was still a guest on the forum and the car was still at the owners driveway. Anyways, its exactly as if you disconnected the starter! no starter movement at all. the guy said it began happening interittently and when he turned the key back & forth a few times it would finally engage the starter. Eventually it stopped working alltogether.Changing the Ign switch & starter did nothing Thats why he sold it, he gave up on it. Yes I do hear the usual relay clicking, but the pump I still need to verify. But the symptoms tell me that it is something in the starter circuit that is not right, I just wish I had a detailed wiring diagram to go by or a point by point description of that circuit. So I believe I should look into this segment first and when the starter finally begins to sing, then I'll start looking into the FI circuit. Do I make sense?
Many thanks for your responses.
The long gray wire is on the outside of the car. Its probably torn off..but its there. You cannot see the grounds under the manifold. They are on the left side. Its by feel only. They are under the #3 cylinder runner/plenum joint area. If you have an automatic ad you have removed the faceplate on the shifter....its a whitish looking plastic block about 3" long that wires go to. Also check the back end of the tranny for a neutral safety switch (doubt you will find one there). Also...have you emptied the passenger seat of all weight...and buckled the seat belt in the drivers seat? That will stop the car from starting as well. Ray
raygreenwood wrote: If you have an automatic ad you have removed the faceplate on the shifter....its a whitish looking plastic block about 3" long that wires go to. Also check the back end of the tranny for a neutral safety switch (doubt you will find one there). Also...have you emptied the passenger seat of all weight...and buckled the seat belt in the drivers seat? That will stop the car from starting as well. Ray
When i remove the face plate, there is the selector scale plate underneath and a bristle plate below it and thats it, all plastic. The selector plate has terminals on each end with wires going from there to some longish connector (can't see, just feel) on the inside of the base moulding. Is this the one? the only way to replace that one would be to disconnect it and slip it up thru one of the slots in the base moulding.
Should I empty the passenger seat of all weight? Far out!!! Yes belt is buckled, but passenger seat!!, thats where am sitting while trouble shooting! Guess I'll get on my knees and off the pass. seat. Also I noticed a "Starter cutout/backup" switch in the online wiring diagram. where is this guy located? should I worry about it?
Update; finally got to the engine compatment and got to met the infamous gray wire, looks ok on both ends. But there a couple of relay looking gizmos (relays?) in the left forward side with a group of wires. One looks cylinderical and has 2 leads, the other is long and is screwed to the left side wall with wires coming out of one side only. Can anybody identify these 2 for me please. Also there a purple black wire hanging loose with a dual spade connector at its end but no wire connected!! any clues what this wire should connect to? And the 2 grounding prongs welded to the firewall front left corner have only one wire plugged in while the other prong is unused. is that normal? And I also checked on the fuel pump, while the relays click the pump does nothing whatsoever, no priming or running at all. Thanks for any input as I really want to get her started baaaaad
Hey, did you check the fuses in the fuse box under the left side of the dash near the change shelf? Can you look at the ignition coil and tell us what you have attached there on each terminal(+,-)? I check the fuel pump basic run by pulling the little 7mm screw on the left fuel rail that goes to the injectors that tees off the rail as a test spot. Remove it and put a piece of fuel line on that tee and then in a jar or oil pan and run the pump by jumping(12volts) at the single red wire that goes to the aux air regulator which is at the right intake air manifold(the tubes) in front of the dip stick and has a single red wire coming from the bottom. That wire goes to the fuel pump relay and to the pump. If you apply current there and be care you are playing with fuel and juice you can see it the pump is able to pump out something. Is she turning over also? I'm guessing so since you said she had a new starter. Sorry I'm not as good at this as Ray! Next I would check the points in the distributor and adjust and inspect. Also there is a ground wire on the point plate that is bare copper. Make sure that isnt broken! I had that and needed a different point plate! Bill
The strange looking cylindrical plugs..are they on the left side of the car? They are most likely the thermostat in the heater duct for the gasoline furnace. Don't mess with them. Yes...the passenger side has kill switch as well. You can simply and temporarily disconnect both seats from this function. Just reach under the inside front for each seat and grab the latch that allows the seat to detach from the forward pivot. Tilt the seat back..and you will see a phone cord type wire with a two prong plug going to a plug on the body. Disconnect both seats. The kill switch in each seat keeps the starter from operating if more than 20 lbs is in it and the belt is not buckled.
The neutral safety switch is under the gradated plate and bristle brush of the shifter. Those parts come loose too. Ray
Thank you both very much. BTW, The car does almost everything except turnover and the starter and ign switch are both verified working, so its somewhere in between. I looked under front seats and both have been already disconnected. I have removed both bristled and graduated plates, now you have the basic cover moulding. If there is a switch, then it must be inside that cover moulding. Can't that switch be bypassed by putting the tranny in N ? I did that already, no difference. Will update on rest of the stuff. Thanks u2 again for your trouble. UPDATE : got under har some more and tested fuel pump with known running one, nada. so although I hear clicking, obviousely the pump is also not getting juice. So the problem is narrowed down to pump & starter not getting juice. Now, am I correct in assuming that if it is the safety switch the pump wont be affected? Also located the brain, the ground wire is in place. That panel is bolted down with the seat mechanism and not easy to remove! Anyways, the car has been dented on the exact location where the brain resides, so am thinking maybe something got disturbed. will take brain out to check if it has sustained any damage. CAn someone tell me where the fuel pump relay is located. TIA
Hey this is weird that the starter isnt turning and the fuel pump isnt running? I see why Ray is thinkin the shift lever switch and the seat ground. I think Ray is maybe talking about the start cutout backup light and switch. Ray if the back up lights come on for a auto would that mean the switch is good? So do you have lights and other power in the car?
If on my fuse block the Big Red/white strip wire coming from the battery comes off you dont get any power to anything. I think one of my relays for the pump is under the dash above the steering coluum bottom cover and mounted to the tin near the brake master and was affected by the leaks! LOL! You'll get it Ray will help you find this gremlen!! Bill
p.s. Hey was the ECU casing dented from the side hit? Those things are pretty tuff!
When you look in the auto tranny setion of the haynes...you will see two views of the shifter. The exploded and assembled versions. Both show what they call the contact plate. It is under all of the covers. There are more than one set of contacts. The switches for the reverse lights are different than the ones for neutral safety. You can have perfectly operating reverse lights and not be making contact for the start circuit.
Do not try to remove these. Generally its just spilled soda, dust, hardened grease and wear at this part. Take all the covers off and make sure the contacts operate. Yes, you can hotwire the two terminals for the safety start together and make it work. Its just simpler to make sure they work. Also, put your foot on the brake when starting. Who know, you may have some other switch installed, but the contact plate on the shifter, was VW's way of making sure that you do not start the car unless its in park or neutral.
Also, look at your battery connections. There should be a small brown wire leading to the negative side....and a 10 gauge or so red one with an insulator going to a flag terminal on the positive side. If the 10 gauge wire is loose or making poor connection...you will not start. Ray
Hey Ray, where/how does the Park switch stop the current from going to the starter? Is it at the ignition switch? The only terminal I see for the ECU for the starter is 18 which is term(50)(from Njell Nelin 914 d-jet) and ECU terminal 24 is the 12volt power and ECU terminal 16 is 12volts power from relay board. So does the switch break the ground for the ignition switch or at a relay? The ECU terminal for the fuel pump relay is Term 19. If he has the ECU out would testing current at the ECU help or do you think he needs to chk and maybe fix it anyway? bill
Nothing, zilch, nada so far! there is so much descripancy that I keep checking the markings on the car to make sure we're talking about the same car here . Can't find the fuel pump relay under the dash, can't find tranny safety switch, can't find the 2nd fuel pump relaywhere they should be. So far 3-4 hrs everyday waisted for zero gain. maybe the locations you people are giving me do not apply to L-jetronic setup for a 74. My mechanic tells me on the phone that he thinks that a 74 tranny should have its safety switch on the R side of the tranny. I looked and saw what only looked like a typical vw oil press sensor but witout any provisions for electrical hook ups just a threaded pole about 1/8" long.Even he was puzzled! I dunno but I'll look some more today and post pics of the suspect locations on the samba for you all to see where am coming from. I truely appreciate your asking though, many thanks.
Also from looking under the car, it is clear the PO had recently replaced the starter. Its still shiney with the tag on it.
